Racing Legends

discussed in 274 posts, 2002-2007 · overall tone mixed

Posts per month

Timeline

2002-07-12 West Racing announced Racing Legends, a modular sim to be sold as a core pack with paid expansions, which replaced World Sports Cars. thread post

Key threads

West Racing unveils Racing Legends modular sim concept 2002-07-12 · 57 posts
The West brothers' website revealed Racing Legends, a new modular, self-published sim with a core pack and paid expansions, replacing WSC. Some were thrilled, while Joel Willstein, Nigel Nichols and others insisted it remained vapourware given the Wests' history. Tim Epstein questioned the business model, and pricing concerns ran through the debate.
West Racing's engine renders and the realism of detail 2003-09-11 · 51 posts
A new West Racing update showing a detailed engine and garage for Racing Legends left most readers puzzled about the priorities of a project with no drivable build. Some suspected the renders served as a portfolio for other work, while Jason Moyer defended the Wests' ambition. The thread became a technical discussion of how much physics detail is useful, with Performance Simulations developer Todd Wasson and Racer developer Ruud van Gaal discussing CPU budgets, simulation step sizes and collision methods.
Racing Legends delay notice and GPL sales figures 2004-02-27 · 29 posts
Roger Squires linked a West Racing statement on the long-delayed Racing Legends, which most posters met with scepticism. Steve Smith said GPL had sold about 300,000 copies, roughly 100,000 at retail plus about 200,000 bundled with a magazine, after weak initial sales of around 30,000, and described it as a skunk-works project led by Dave Kaemmer to build NR's new physics engine. Jason Moyer argued a GPL2 would now sell well to a bigger sim market.
Hoax claim that Racing Legends was cancelled 2005-08-21 · 136 posts
An anonymous poster claimed the West brothers had cancelled Racing Legends, and long-time critics such as redTed said they had predicted it. Others found no announcement and called it a hoax, and team members Gregor Veble and Todd Wasson flatly denied it. A heated argument followed over whether calling the project a 'scam' was libellous. Wasson argued that community abuse had driven the developers to stop communicating.
Would you pay $50 to beta-test Racing Legends? 2002-07-14 · 68 posts
Roger Squires pointed to a West forum poll on paying around $50 for the Racing Legends beta. Most said no, arguing testers should not pay and that it looked like funding development from fans, while a few were willing as a gamble on an independent project. The debate also covered whether a small team could deliver such an ambitious sim and compared it to military simulators.
Business case analysis of West Racing Legends 2002-07-12 · 66 posts
Tim Epstein analysed the commercial viability of West Racing Legends' high-price, direct-sale modular model. Douglas Ellison cited X-Plane as a working precedent, while others worried about piracy, the core pack lacking basic features like damage, and the Wests' record after Empire. The argument resumed in August with jabs about 'suckers' and Live for Speed.
West forum post on Racing Legends pricing and beta 2002-07-14 · 56 posts
Alex Kihurani linked a West Racing forum thread clarifying Racing Legends plans, which suggested a core release with one car and one track for around 100 pounds and a paid beta credited against the final price. Many reacted with dismay at the price for so little content, and some questioned testing on a P3 with a Voodoo5. A side debate asked whether Papyrus ever modelled differences between car makes.
How much would you pay for West Racing Legends? 2002-07-12 · 51 posts
Posters said what they would pay for Racing Legends if it lived up to the hype. Answers ranged from $40 to $500 or more, with many favouring around $100 for the core and modest expansion prices, while sceptics doubted it would ship. Lee Ward later reported that the Wests told him at Goodwood that multiplayer features were a priority.
West Racing vows Racing Legends will be completed 2002-09-18 · 49 posts
Dave Cook quoted West Racing's forum statement that Racing Legends would be completed no matter what. Sceptics pointed to years without working code and the teddy-bear shop, while supporters such as Doug Ellison and Dan Leach defended the brothers and blamed Empire for the cancellation of their earlier World Sports Cars project. Many contrasted the West brothers with the Live for Speed team, which had quietly released a working demo.
Racing Legends progress and PPU physics hardware 2005-05-01 · 49 posts
A poster asked whether the long-delayed Racing Legends would use the new PPU physics hardware, which drew mockery about the West brothers' slow progress. Developer Gregor Veble replied that a PPU would help only if it were programmable and widely adopted, and pointed to an AutoSimSport article on the subject. Ashley McConnell defended the team, and others debated development timescales and the wisdom of their early publicity.
West Racing's Racing Legends update and doubts over screenshots 2003-08-07 · 44 posts
The first West Racing update on Racing Legends in months drew more discussion of the developers' cat, which had been killed, than of the project itself. Andrew MacPherson and others hoped the sim would succeed despite the Wests having sold their house, but Schooner argued the new images had to be offline 3D renders rather than in-game shots. Many regulars said they had given up on the project ever appearing.
Is Racing Legends still worth waiting for? 2003-04-28 · 43 posts
Trick Dacy said he had lost faith in the West brothers' Racing Legends while independent sims such as Live for Speed shipped working demos. Ashley McConnell defended the Wests, explaining they had to start from scratch after Empire kept the World Sports Cars code, while others mocked years of promises. Ruud van Gaal also discussed Racer support and TrackIR head tracking.
Racing Legends update features a detailed car transporter 2003-10-20 · 37 posts
West Racing's October update showed a fully modelled 1968 car transporter, which most readers mocked as an absurd priority for a sim with no drivable build. Gene Penman said a developer friend confirmed the Wests had been dropped from WSC for having nothing to show. Racer developer Ruud van Gaal and others discussed what a sensible development order would be.
Second anniversary of Racing Legends' last update 2005-10-27 · 31 posts
Tim Epstein noted two years had passed since the Racing Legends project last updated its site, prompting jokes about the missing transporter. Todd Wasson, who worked on Virtual RC Racing, defended the developers in posts he later admitted were written while drunk, and apologised. He clarified that Chris West was still working full time on Racing Legends while Tony West worked on VRC.
Racing Legends website goes offline 2004-06-21 · 30 posts
The West brothers' Racing Legends site showed an expired-domain page, prompting jokes that the long-delayed project was dead. J. Todd Wasson said he had spoken to them and it was only a renewal mix-up after an address change, and the site returned. Critics complained about years of hype, rare updates and the much-mocked detailed Lotus transporter, while Wasson said Empire, not the Wests, was to blame for the earlier World Sports Cars collapse.
West Racing says no Racing Legends beta this year 2002-09-18 · 28 posts
KMH noted that West Racing's site now said there would be no Racing Legends beta in 2002, despite an FAQ and an August forum post saying a product would launch later in the year. Some, like Jan Verschueren and David Buttery, saw the earlier statements as best guesses, while others called them empty promises. Most of the thread was mockery of the teddy-bear merchandise.
West Racing opens Racing Legends merchandise shop 2002-09-17 · 27 posts
A post pointing to the Racing Legends site led readers to discover West Racing selling T-shirts, caps and teddy bears before any game existed. Most mocked the idea as a sign of money trouble or misplaced priorities, while DB and others defended the developers' persistence. Remco Moedt recalled that Dave Kaemmer had once sold T-shirts to fund Indy 500.
Live for Speed demo praise and comparison with Racing Legends 2002-08-28 · 25 posts
Peter Nilsson raved about doing doughnuts in the Live for Speed demo's RWD XR GT, and others praised the quick multiplayer and dual-axis patch, saying they would pay for the demo. Doug Ellison pointed out the hypocrisy of attacking the West brothers for proposing a paid beta for Racing Legends. Others replied that LFS had appeared quietly with a working demo while RL had years of publicity and nothing to drive, and the exchange grew snippy.
Racing Legends: three years since last update 2006-10-27 · 22 posts
Tim Epstein noted three years had passed since the Racing Legends site's last update. Todd Wasson insisted the project was still in development, having driven its physics engine with Gregor Veble, but said no release date was known. Others remained sceptical and mocked the delays.
Sceptics and believers argue over Racing Legends 2002-07-18 · 77 posts
Andi Cole questioned whether Racing Legends was more WSC-style hype. Phil Lee and Douglas Ellison, who met the Wests at Goodwood, vouched for them, while Joel Willstein and redTed said their spending on publicity and leather binders should go to development. A release date listing of Q4 2002 was noted, and Ellison mentioned X-Plane's author planning a car sim.
Nigel Nichols' Racing Legends hoax joke sparks row 2002-07-13 · 75 posts
Pedal maker Nigel Nichols posted a mock announcement that the West brothers had sponsorship from the 'Hoax Corporation' and would ship an empty demo CD case. Jan Verschueren and Dan Leach called it offensive trolling, while Goy Larsen, redTed and others found it funny and defended Nichols. The thread turned into personal sniping about who was trolling whom.
Purist wish list of features to exclude from Racing Legends 2002-07-12 · 69 posts
Gerry Aitken listed features he did not want in West Racing Legends, including save games, outside views, joystick support, driver aids, modern F1, ovals and unlimited offline testing. Some agreed, but many called it elitist, arguing optional features broaden the market and that offline practice makes online racing safer. Side discussions covered piracy, WWII aircraft, and Aitken's ideas for limited tyres and mandatory force feedback in leagues.
Will there be an F1 2003, and Racing Legends' prospects 2003-01-09 · 50 posts
Glenn Andressen, struggling to buy F1 2002 in Australia, asked about an F1 2003. Posters believed EA had let its F1 licence lapse, so none was expected. The thread moved on to scepticism about Racing Legends' cost and vapourware status, LFS's new screenshots and performance, and whether Michael Schumacher's dominance owed more to car or driver.
Rumour that Live for Speed is a secret Racing Legends test 2002-08-18 · 46 posts
Damien Smith reported a rumour that Live for Speed was an early test of Racing Legends. Douglas Ellison and others said it was false and that LFS was made by former Black and White developers. The thread became another redTed versus Ellison argument over Racing Legends' pricing and credibility.
What happened to the West brothers' Racing Legends? 2003-07-10 · 43 posts
Bruce Kennewell asked about Racing Legends, whose website had not been updated since February. Ashley McConnell said the developers were still working but had withdrawn from forums after threats of legal action. Others called it vapourware, compared it to Battlecruiser 3000AD and Duke Nukem Forever, and reported that the brothers had sold their house to fund it.
Summary request for the Racing Legends concept 2002-07-14 · 42 posts
Dave Henrie asked for a summary of Racing Legends' cost and content. The reported '1 unlicensed car, 1 unlicensed track, $150' sparked ridicule, while defenders stressed the included tools to build cars and tracks. Lee Ward and Mark Seery later said the one-car figure referred to the initial beta, citing the West FAQ.
Why do people ridicule Racing Legends as a hoax? 2002-07-13 · 39 posts
Douglas Ellison asked why critics treated Racing Legends as a hoax when the Wests had a working engine and had shown it to people. Joel Willstein restated that WSC remained vapourware and the Wests had a poor record, while others said the Wests needed support rather than cheerleading. The thread drifted into jokes about GP4 being satanic.
Reactions to West Racing's transporter update 2003-10-21 · 38 posts
Nick and Eldred criticised West Racing's choice to spend a month modelling a transporter, while Dave Henrie, Mitch_A and Carl Ribbegaardh argued the Wests owed the community nothing and should be left to work their own way. Some suggested modelling paddock detail suited a premium-priced product. The thread drifted into a discussion of religion and belief.
Which upcoming sim is worth waiting for 2002-09-23 · 37 posts
Jeffrey asked what the next big racing sim would be. Suggestions included NASCAR Racing 2003 as Papyrus's last NASCAR title, Live for Speed, Racing Legends, Codemasters' Race Driver and IRL game, Dirt Track Racing 2 and Need for Speed Hot Pursuit 2. Many were pessimistic, and posters debated whether EA would continue its F1 series.
April Fools Racing Legends demo post 2003-03-31 · 36 posts
John P posted a fake announcement that a Racing Legends demo was out, which several readers fell for and asked for a link. Others noted the long-delayed project was a yearly April Fools target and joked about TOCA Race Driver getting a steering patch.
Jokes about the West brothers' dead cat 2004-06-22 · 36 posts
A post marking the anniversary of the death of Spooky, the Racing Legends developers' cat, drew mocking jokes that tied the cat's fate to the project's lack of progress. A poster objected that it was in poor taste, and the thread veered into vegetarianism, factory farming and personal-freedom arguments.
Doubts over Racing Legends after months without updates 2003-05-14 · 34 posts
Nick noted that the Racing Legends website had not been updated for three months and questioned the West brothers' commitment. Douglas Ellison defended them as people he had met and trusted, while others called the project vapourware or argued that the developers could be honest yet over-optimistic. The thread became a familiar faith-versus-scepticism argument.
Tony West working on Virtual RC Racing 2004-11-09 · 32 posts
News that Tony West had done 3D work for the Virtual RC Racing sim prompted jokes about Racing Legends delays, hamster views and transport boxes. J. Todd Wasson, a lead developer of the RC sim, defended the West brothers, explaining Tony was contract help and that the brothers had turned down jobs to pursue their own project.
Le Mans 2002 mod for F1 2002 announced 2002-10-01 · 31 posts
Mikkel Gram-Hansen highlighted the Le Mans 2002 mod team's announcement for F1 2002, provocatively calling it a Racing Legends killer. Doug Ellison countered that F1 2002's poor netcode and inaccurate tracks limited such mods, and an angry exchange followed over constant anti-Racing Legends jibes. Others discussed whether EA's NASCAR Thunder 2003 would be a better modding base and the importance of accurate tracks.
West Racing posts first Racing Legends screenshot 2002-08-10 · 28 posts
jon pointed to a new track screenshot on the West Racing site. Some were encouraged, but Tim Epstein worried that the Wests were awaiting a new PC to test graphics and questioned online security. Posters noted Empire had used the WSC licences, though not the Wests' models, for Total Immersion Racing.
Skepticism over Racing Legends render on West Racing site 2002-08-28 · 26 posts
An update to the West Racing site showed attractive images for the long-awaited Racing Legends. Schooner and others dismissed them as 3D Studio Max renders that said little about the actual game, while Doug Ellison, David Powell and Mike defended the developers and argued the renders showed real game assets. The exchange reflected growing impatience over the lack of in-game shots or a demo.
Joke 'update' post about the West brothers 2003-07-30 · 25 posts
frederickson posted a fake 'update at West Racing' headline as a joke, catching several readers. Replies mocked the long-delayed Racing Legends project and its stale insider news for donors, while Douglas Ellison insisted the project was fine.
Is West Racing's Racing Legends vapourware? 2002-11-06 · 23 posts
A poster asked whether the West brothers' Racing Legends project was vapourware. Most replies were mocking, comparing it to World Sports Cars and joking about the West Racing merchandise shop. Jan Verschueren argued that 'wait and see' was the only defensible position.
Is paying hundreds for Racing Legends sensible or sad? 2002-07-12 · 23 posts
redTed said he would skip Racing Legends because of its likely cost, and argued that paying heavily for a game rather than real driving was sad. Douglas Ellison explained that Empire owned the WSC code, so Racing Legends had to be built from scratch. Jan Verschueren, Tim Epstein and others defended spending on an enthusiast hobby, and the exchange grew testy.
Has anyone actually driven Racing Legends? 2002-08-02 · 22 posts
Goy Larsen asked whether anyone had driven Racing Legends. Douglas Ellison said Chris West told him it was not yet drivable since it had been started from scratch, and joking 'two weeks' replies followed. Carl Ribbegaardh noted the Wests' long list of earlier commercial games.

Busiest threads

Purist wish list of features to exclude from Racing Legends (20 posts about it)
Business case analysis of West Racing Legends (17 posts about it)
Would you pay $50 to beta-test Racing Legends? (14 posts about it)
West Racing vows Racing Legends will be completed (10 posts about it)
Why do people ridicule Racing Legends as a hoax? (9 posts about it)
West forum post on Racing Legends pricing and beta (8 posts about it)
West Racing unveils Racing Legends modular sim concept (8 posts about it)
Is Racing Legends still worth waiting for? (7 posts about it)
Nigel Nichols' Racing Legends hoax joke sparks row (7 posts about it)
Live for Speed demo praise and comparison with Racing Legends (6 posts about it)
Racing Legends: three years since last update (5 posts about it)
Racing Legends update features a detailed car transporter (5 posts about it)
West Racing's engine renders and the realism of detail (5 posts about it)
Are hardcore sim fans scaring off developers? (5 posts about it)
Which upcoming sim is worth waiting for (5 posts about it)

Sentiment by year

Each post that discussed the sim was rated from −2 (very negative) to +2 (very positive).

Year	Posts	Positive	Negative	Tone
2002	189	44	48	mixed (-0.03)
2003	49	13	12	mixed (-0.06)
2004	14	0	8	very negative (-0.71)
2005	16	2	7	negative (-0.31)
2006	5	2	3	negative (-0.20)
2007	1	0	1	very negative (-2.00)