Hardcore sim-ers - they are their worst enemy

I entered the sim scene dec 99. I bought GPL (well, I got a pirated copy, and ran around town, trying to find a copy at full price when it was announced that it was going on nice price - luckily, I got the full priced version). After GPL, there has been the WSC hype. There has been a few demos from individuals, there has been a few Nascar games from Papy. There has been LFS, and some efforts from Codemasters. The response from the community on (almost) every effort from commercial companies besides those individuals that spend their spare time trying programming a car to behave properly on track, has been slautgther. Everything sucks. Steering, physics... everything. Hardcore sim-ers encourages ppl *not* to buy a product. If I were the Wests. I'd give up on hardcore sim fans. They will never be satisfied. The Wests may very well make the best sim ever made, but I bet you $$$ that there will be a lot of critisism if this sim ever is to be released. "Tire modelling isn't right", "Draft modelling is worse than N2002", "there is a few graphical glitches", "Deadzone is bad", etc. Why on earth would anyone with half a brain or more try to please the hardcore sim-ers?? When did the hardcore sim-ers give any positive feedback on anything? Try to please the hardcore sim-er, and you will get flamed heavily. Arcade racers. That's where the money is - if there is any money in games involving driving. As long as they can keep on track without braking or letting go of the gas pedal, and AI arent competitable, ppl preferring arcade racers are satisfied. Any game will do. The hardcore sim-er chops the head of anyone trying to do a proper sim. Badmouthing is easy. Presenting constructive critisism is harder. I guess most of us should practise more on the latter. That would be of benefit to all sim eacers. Jon Andersen

And your point is? Bye, Leo

Are you by any chance a fan of the West's latest venture?

Sure, I hope they succeed. Now, what was your point? Bye, Leo

"jon" <[email hidden]> skrev i melding news:b8Ila.740$[email hidden]... > Are you by any chance a fan of the West's latest venture? > I hvae been very sceptical about the Wests. They have shown nothing but pictures and videos. That prooves nothing to me. My point was that if we keep on chopping of heads, ppl will not stick their necks out. We should encourage things that is up to our demands, rather than to flame everything that isn't. Jon Andersen

> And your point is? I think you should read my post again, bearing in mind that english is a foreign language to me, and remembering the shit that has been given every attempt from a commercial company that has tried to develop software involving one or more cars. How on earth can we expect anyone to bring us a good sim if we chop the head off everebody that tries to do so? Jon Andersen

Leo Landman wrote: > And your point is? His point is "flawed" - after all, we all know how little applause Papy got after releasing GPL. Very very little. Ooo yeah, nobody found anything positive to say. Sheesh. There's just no pleasing people indeed. Yea, hardcore critique often is relatively hard. That's what it's hardcore for. But saying it's only negative is way off, too. Regards, Ruud

<snip> > Yea, hardcore critique often is relatively hard. That's what it's > hardcore for. But saying it's only negative is way off, too. > > Regards, Ruud<snip> Point taken. There has in fact been a few post pointing out the positive things in sims other than those from Papy. I guess I just had to let off some steam.

>"Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> wrote so? -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

In article <vmIla.7253$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > My point was that if we keep on chopping of heads, ppl will not stick their > necks out. We should encourage things that is up to our demands, rather than > to flame everything that isn't. > So we should just be happy with what we are given and feel lucky that we are getting anything at all? What good would that do? What motivation would companies have to make their games better? If I pay $40-50 for a game, I have ever right to say what I feel about it in public. If I like it, I'll tell everyone. If I don't I'll tell that too. If a child makes a C on their report card, should we be happy with that and tell them that they did great and at least they didn't make a D or F, or should we encourage them to do better because we know they can make an A or B? I hate to keep going back to it, but GPL has proven that it can be done. And that was _5 YEARS_ ago. No one has come close since and that's pretty sad. -- __________________________ Todd Walker http://twalker.d2g.com __________________________

I tend to agree jon, when it comes to RL I very much doubt they will come up with what folk want, especially considering theres only 3 of them at most working on it, not only do they need to work on programming, 3d modelling tracks, and Cars, there is also net code to sort out, and i very much doubt they will come up with anything like papys code, if big guns like codemasters, EA etc cant do it how can they??? Seems to me papy have it all right, and good net code is important to me, if papy release another open wheel sim in the next years ahead i would definetly jump on it. Then theres the time it will take them to make it, most ppl lose patience FACT, just look at the west forum <G> Then comes the price well i really dont care what folk say about "oh i will pay anything" the tough decision from west bro's will be do they make the cost of the game high to cover for obvious overheads and profit or do they just settle for less and hope it works out, i for one wouldnt want to be in their shoes. And before a RL fanboy jumps on me, my position is i really dont think it will come to much but that doesnt mean i want it to fail, bottom line is i dont care really..... "Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wtHla.7258$[email hidden]...

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> I entered the sim scene dec 99. I bought GPL (well, I got a pirated copy, > and ran around town, trying to find a copy at full price when it was > announced that it was going on nice price - luckily, I got the full priced > version). > > After GPL, there has been the WSC hype. There has been a few demos from > individuals, there has been a few Nascar games from Papy. There has been > LFS, and some efforts from Codemasters. > > The response from the community on (almost) every effort from commercial > companies besides those individuals that spend their spare time trying > programming a car to behave properly on track, has been slautgther. > Everything sucks. Steering, physics... everything. Hardcore sim-ers > encourages ppl *not* to buy a product. > > If I were the Wests. I'd give up on hardcore sim fans. They will never be > satisfied. The Wests may very well make the best sim ever made, but I bet > you $$$ that there will be a lot of critisism if this sim ever is to be > released. "Tire modelling isn't right", "Draft modelling is worse than > N2002", "there is a few graphical glitches", "Deadzone is bad", etc. > > Why on earth would anyone with half a brain or more try to please the > hardcore sim-ers?? When did the hardcore sim-ers give any positive

feedback

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> on anything? Try to please the hardcore sim-er, and you will get flamed > heavily. > > Arcade racers. That's where the money is - if there is any money in games > involving driving. As long as they can keep on track without braking or > letting go of the gas pedal, and AI arent competitable, ppl preferring > arcade racers are satisfied. Any game will do. The hardcore sim-er chops

the

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> head of anyone trying to do a proper sim. > > Badmouthing is easy. Presenting constructive critisism is harder. I guess > most of us should practise more on the latter. That would be of benefit to > all sim eacers. > > Jon Andersen > > > > > > > >

I disagree. Sim'ers have praised titles like GPL, N2003, GTR 2002 etc. Of course people are always going to point out things which they think could be improved but that's the nature of any product. You can't really blame people for saying things like 'Race Driver Sucks!' or 'V8 Challenge lows!' - afterall, these titles aren't even in the same ballpark in terms of realism or overall quality compared to the other titles I mentioned. My hopes for RL aren't particularly high, but if they release something even marginally better than GPL, I'll be quite happy. I think the biggest enemy of sim racing is the fact that you really need a good wheel to use hardcore sims. That means that a lot of kids out there who might be interested in racing end up just playing Counter-strike or something because even mummy & daddy's PC has the rigtht controllers needed to play it. -- Steve Simpson Australian Sim Racing Forums http://bathurst.ausforums.com/

"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote here on 12 Apr 2003: <snip> > My hopes for RL aren't > particularly high, but if they release something even marginally > better than GPL, I'll be quite happy.<snip> Take out "even marginally better than GPL", and I completely agree. </cheap shot> -- Above address *is* valid - but snip spamtrap to get me to *read*!

Good post.. You can't really get mad at hardcore-simmers for picking stuff apart and criticising, that's why the "hardcore" prefix is there. Also, i'm sure for all the badmouthing that goes on, there's more good work going on, with people helping other people mod stuff and lending their knowledge of physics and such to other people. As much as it's easy to criticise something, it's easy to just notice people criticising things... From a software development point of view, I couldn't agree more. This is a pretty bad target market, and if I was in it for the $$$, I'd pump out an arcade racer before I'd ever try to pleace the people in this newsgroup... But, the same could be said for any hardcore-whatever group. Why try to record the next "The Wall", when hardcore floyd fans are just going to say "the vocals suck. That's over/under produced. Those guys are like, just trying to be Floyd man.. " when I can throw together 4 kids in some skateboard clothes and record a pop punk album? Someone's gotta be the hardcore-whatever people... On a side note, I've given huge props to the GTR2002 people and will also give full props to the LFS guys when there's a new track available! Also, the racer and netkar people.. I -loved- Rally Trophy. I was into CMR2 at the time as well. While I'm at it... Hard Drivin' was awesome, Sega Rally arcade at the mall owned my childhood... Ridge Racer was great. Turismo A-Spec still looks the most photorealistic. Ivan "Iron Man" Stewarts Super Offroad was great too... Mike http://mikebeauchamp.com "Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wtHla.7258$[email hidden]...

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> I entered the sim scene dec 99. I bought GPL (well, I got a pirated copy, > and ran around town, trying to find a copy at full price when it was > announced that it was going on nice price - luckily, I got the full priced > version). > > After GPL, there has been the WSC hype. There has been a few demos from > individuals, there has been a few Nascar games from Papy. There has been > LFS, and some efforts from Codemasters. > > The response from the community on (almost) every effort from commercial > companies besides those individuals that spend their spare time trying > programming a car to behave properly on track, has been slautgther. > Everything sucks. Steering, physics... everything. Hardcore sim-ers > encourages ppl *not* to buy a product. > > If I were the Wests. I'd give up on hardcore sim fans. They will never be > satisfied. The Wests may very well make the best sim ever made, but I bet > you $$$ that there will be a lot of critisism if this sim ever is to be > released. "Tire modelling isn't right", "Draft modelling is worse than > N2002", "there is a few graphical glitches", "Deadzone is bad", etc. > > Why on earth would anyone with half a brain or more try to please the > hardcore sim-ers?? When did the hardcore sim-ers give any positive

feedback

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> on anything? Try to please the hardcore sim-er, and you will get flamed > heavily. > > Arcade racers. That's where the money is - if there is any money in games > involving driving. As long as they can keep on track without braking or > letting go of the gas pedal, and AI arent competitable, ppl preferring > arcade racers are satisfied. Any game will do. The hardcore sim-er chops

the

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> head of anyone trying to do a proper sim. > > Badmouthing is easy. Presenting constructive critisism is harder. I guess > most of us should practise more on the latter. That would be of benefit to > all sim eacers. > > Jon Andersen > > > > > > > >

"Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> If I were the Wests. I'd give up on hardcore sim fans. They will never be > satisfied. The Wests may very well make the best sim ever made, but I bet > you $$$ that there will be a lot of critisism if this sim ever is to be > released. "Tire modelling isn't right", "Draft modelling is worse than > N2002", "there is a few graphical glitches", "Deadzone is bad", etc. > > Why on earth would anyone with half a brain or more try to please the > hardcore sim-ers?? When did the hardcore sim-ers give any positive

feedback > on anything? Try to please the hardcore sim-er, and you will get flamed > heavily. Not if you do it right you don't. Anyway, I don't consider myself to be a hardcore sim-er, but I enjoy a good racing game, even if 'it's no GPL'. To me, that's any racing game that is immersive, that makes me forget that I'm /really/ just sitting behind my desk. That will not happen if there's no 'chemistry' between what's going on in my mind, and what I see on my screen. A game doesn't have to be a hardcore sim for that (but it helps...). I remember a game from the C64 days, called Rally Speedway. I loved that game, for the same reason that I might love GPL, or GTR2002: I could /feel/ the car, I understood the way it handled, it made sense! There was this one track that had a curve near the end, and I used to try and do a 360 spin there, which was pure ecstasy when it worked... The above doesn't mean that I'll flame any game that doesn't have that chemistry for me, but I would flame something that /claims/ to be 'all that', while it's actually rubbish. Why still release rubbish, when the standard has already been set? You're just begging for it, IMO. Back to the drawing board lads. Ice D

"Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wtHla.7258$[email hidden]... > The response from the community on (almost) every effort from commercial > companies besides those individuals that spend their spare time trying > programming a car to behave properly on track, has been slautgther. > Everything sucks. Steering, physics... everything. Hardcore sim-ers > encourages ppl *not* to buy a product. GPL N4 N2002 N2003 F12002 and associated mods LFS I don't have time to play LFS, GTR, GPL because of all the time our NASCAR/ASCAR leagues take up. And I think they're great titles. Yes there are some who go overboard on little flaws but to just generalise the entire group is totally lame and stikes me as little more than flaming. Are you happy with the rise you got? *Nothing* is perfect in sim land and it never will be on consumer hardware or otherwise. When people address areas that perhaps *could* be improved upon is NOT a bad thing. Quite the opposite, in fact. The LFS buzz is such that it looks destined to become a huge hit - and it's pretty hardcore. I will be buying, even though I will hardly get a chance to run it. I did F12002 and donated to simbin for GTR2002. I think you've been reading selectively. Credit is *absolutely* given where it's due in the *simulators* newsgroup. If the box of TOCA Race Driver says it's striving for realism, a realism junkie buys it and finds that it's anything *but* realistic, what's wrong with a sim-head advising other sim-heads not to buy? Nothing. Regards, Mark Davison OVAL Deputy Admin Car #69 http://www.tjracing.co.uk/OVAL/

Sarcy twat "Leo Landman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b77jhk$3ma$[email hidden]...

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> Sure, I hope they succeed. > Now, what was your point? > > Bye, > Leo > >

On Sat, 12 Apr 2003 02:04:12 +0100, "Douglas Thomson" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I tend to agree jon, when it comes to RL I very much doubt they will come up >with what folk want, especially considering theres only 3 of them at most >working on it, Three? The cat doesn't count! Andre

"Jon Andersen" wrote... > <snip> > Badmouthing is easy. Presenting constructive critisism > is harder. I guess most of us should practise more on > the latter. That would be of benefit to all sim eacers. I will agree some could choose their wording better. On the other hand, after some ten years of PC racing simulations we still see the same gripes we've been complaining about all along pop-up in new racing games. With excellent titles on the market, which require commitment to really master and be able to race online, I find it understandable patience with developer oversights/stubborness is wearing thin. Anyhow, eventhough Papyrus games, due to the longlevity the online playability lends to the titles, "dominate" the newsgroup for longer, plenty of titles by other developers have been well received, as other posters have already pointed out. Also, your argument lifts the comments you take objection to out of their context. I don't want to sound pedantic, but this is rec.autos.simulators; a newsgroup which caters to sim-builders and sim-enthousiasts of varying degree (and most of us have been bitten by the bug badly <g>). When I post here (or on a sim-related webboard), I don't feel the need to qualify my statements with phrases like "as a hardcore simmer" or "if you're a hardcore simmer". I assume that part understood. In the same vain the terms "realism" and "simulation" are more strictly defined on this group than they appear to be at publisher PR departments.<g> Jan. =---

"Douglas Thomson" wrote... > <snip> > if big guns like codemasters, EA etc cant do it > how can they??? Hmmm... I would turn that question around and ask: "If amateur coders like Ashley McConnel, Ruud van Gaal etc.. can do it (believable physics/car feel/split axis/proper controller configuration), why can't the big guns?". The answer is, of course: because they don't want to. They gun for the "average gamer". The average gamer won't be vocal about certain unfortunate aspects of the game, true, but he won't praise its merits as loudly as a genre enthousiast either and he certainly won't keep on expanding the game so that it lasts and still draws new buyers 4 1/2 years after its release. I don't know whether the West brothers are capable of acchieving their ambitions, but I'm not going to knock them for trying. Jan. =---

"Jon Andersen" wrote... > <snip> > I hvae been very sceptical about the Wests. They > have shown nothing but pictures and videos. That > prooves nothing to me. "Badmouthing is easy. Presenting constructive critisism is harder." -LOL ;-) > My point was that if we keep on chopping of heads, > ppl will not stick their necks out. We should > encourage things that is up to our demands, rather > than to flame everything that isn't. And how are we supposed to do that... buy massively flawed games in the hope they'll do a better one in future out of gratitude? -It doesn't work that way. In fact, I think "our" main error was not being critical enough in our buying habits when racing simulations were still seen as commercially viable. Jan. =---

"Andre Warringa" wrote... > <snip> > Three? The cat doesn't count! Chris West, Tony West and Gregor Huttu.... that's three people. Wait a minute... hmmm... you may have a point there!! ;-)) Jan. =--- PS.: the cat is the Q&A manager on the project. <g>

Jan i aint knocking them i am just being honest :D Big difference, i dont have anything to gain nor to lose by bashing the west's.... "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zBWla.43186$[email hidden]...

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> "Douglas Thomson" wrote... > > <snip> > > if big guns like codemasters, EA etc cant do it > > how can they??? > > Hmmm... I would turn that question around and ask: "If amateur coders like > Ashley McConnel, Ruud van Gaal etc.. can do it (believable physics/car > feel/split axis/proper controller configuration), why can't the big

guns?". > > The answer is, of course: because they don't want to. They gun for the > "average gamer". The average gamer won't be vocal about certainunfortunate

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> aspects of the game, true, but he won't praise its merits as loudly as a > genre enthousiast either and he certainly won't keep on expanding the game > so that it lasts and still draws new buyers 4 1/2 years after its release. > > I don't know whether the West brothers are capable of acchieving their > ambitions, but I'm not going to knock them for trying. > > Jan. > =--- > > > >

btw jan its gregor veble not that alien driver gregor hutto.. Dug T "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:xHWla.43191$[email hidden]...

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> "Andre Warringa" wrote... > > <snip> > > Three? The cat doesn't count! > > Chris West, Tony West and Gregor Huttu.... that's three people. > > Wait a minute... hmmm... you may have a point there!! ;-)) > > Jan. > =--- > PS.: the cat is the Q&A manager on the project. <g> > >

On Sat, 12 Apr 2003 17:17:31 +0100, "Douglas Thomson" <[email hidden]> wrote: >btw jan its gregor veble not that alien driver gregor hutto.. Who's that? :)

oops sorry greger :D mabye i should go back to school and learn spelling. Dug T "Greger Huttu" <g?????.h????@netikka.fi> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 12 Apr 2003 17:17:31 +0100, "Douglas Thomson" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >btw jan its gregor veble not that alien driver gregor hutto.. > > Who's that? :)

oops sorry greger :D mabye i should go back to school and learn spelling. Dug T > On Sat, 12 Apr 2003 17:17:31 +0100, "Douglas Thomson" > >btw jan its gregor veble not that alien driver gregor hutto.. > Who's that? :)

"Douglas Thomson" wrote... > btw jan its gregor veble not that alien driver > gregor hutto.. Apologies... I was misinformed. Jan. =---

In article <[email hidden]>, David Buttery <[email hidden]> writes:

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>"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote here on 12 Apr 2003: > ><snip> >> My hopes for RL aren't >> particularly high, but if they release something even marginally >> better than GPL, I'll be quite happy. ><snip> > >Take out "even marginally better than GPL", and I completely agree. > ></cheap shot>

Damn - beat me to it...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:-1.680 MonsterRank: +334.169 N2002 Rank:+17.59 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <xHWla.43191$[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> writes: >Chris West, Tony West and Gregor Huttu.... that's three people. I believe it's "Greger"...<g> Huttu...Barada...Nikto Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:-1.680 MonsterRank: +334.169 N2002 Rank:+17.59 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht news:DKIla.7286$[email hidden]... > I guess I just had to let off some steam. Jon, all hardcore simmers are hoping RL will materialize one day and be the dog's b*ll*cks. Looking at the postings in the West forum, the average West basher is not your average hardcore simmer. Ignore them, like the Wests do. Bye, Leo

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:AO_la.43497$[email hidden]...

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> "Douglas Thomson" wrote... > > btw jan its gregor veble not that alien driver > > gregor hutto.. > > Apologies... I was misinformed. > > Jan. > =---

Yup, GV may not be as fast as GH, but he does bring a PhD into the equation (no pun intended!). And he's even written his own little sim before. Pretty interesting piece of work, actually. Not sure if it's still around, and can't remember where I got it - probably a link from the RL forum. It has some interesting experimental aspects, like a POV lookahead seemingly tied to the direction the car's traveling, regardless of whether it's doing so going forward or backward. Spins are interesting! Urrrp... ;-) Doing donuts in the bumpy infield with the champcar's a hoot, and going from rwd to fwd to 4wd is immediately apparent in how the car reacts to the throttle. Fun little physics experiment! SB PS - oh, I forgot. I'm supposed to say; it's no GPL, dOOd - iT sUcKz! ;-)

On Sat, 12 Apr 2003 21:47:49 -0400, "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:AO_la.43497$[email hidden]... >> "Douglas Thomson" wrote... >> > btw jan its gregor veble not that alien driver >> > gregor hutto.. >> >> Apologies... I was misinformed. >> >> Jan. >> =--- > >Yup, GV may not be as fast as GH, but he does bring a PhD into the equation >(no pun intended!). And he's even written his own little sim before. >Pretty interesting piece of work, actually. Not sure if it's still around, >and can't remember where I got it - probably a link from the RL forum.

Check out http://www.camtp.uni-mb.si/camtp/veble/sims/readme.html The physics are great, although I probably never tried the latest version. Given Gregor's record, it's probably spot on though. :) Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

On Sat, 12 Apr 2003 15:50:55 GMT, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>"Douglas Thomson" wrote... >> <snip> >> if big guns like codemasters, EA etc cant do it >> how can they??? > >Hmmm... I would turn that question around and ask: "If amateur coders like >Ashley McConnel, Ruud van Gaal etc.. can do it (believable physics/car >feel/split axis/proper controller configuration), why can't the big guns?".

Good question; actually writing a decent controller module isn't that hard; it's mostly just a bunch of code and an hour of thinking on your datastructure (that should be targeted at 10+ years from now). I must say, I tried getting my MSFF wheel to work in GP4; couldn't get it to work in the standard install, applied the patch and that was better. But while racing, it doesn't handle steering, while that was ok in the control screen. Also, the control screen is so damn complex for such a simple thing. Can't really understand how Geoff looks at all this. And when I see a Voodoo 'Wheel pulls left' option, hmmmmmmmm! ;-) Not that any GPx version had a decent UI; if only they hired one man for one day to design it, it would have been so much easier. F12k2 is better, but there I have the same MSFF behaving weird; it starts out ok, until I move on a couple of sessions, and then FF is turned off, except for kerbs. And *when* it hits a kerb, that force keeps on pulling. Until I magically press one of 2 buttons on my wheel; it is then over until I touch a kerb again. May be too many effects stacked onto eachother. But what was weird in F12k2 is that I had to set FF to -100%. I've never had to do that in Racer. Not sure how that could happen. Perhaps they just use more complex controls than me, or have been sucked in too much in the DirectX programming rythm; "if it's easy, make it look complex"! ;-) But I was surprised at the rendering speed of F12k2 on my PII-400; it actually runs quite nicely (with a GF3). It's just that loading a track takes ages (really, minutes). That's a big bummer. Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

On Sat, 12 Apr 2003 00:50:49 GMT, Todd Walker wrote: > If a child makes a C on their report card, should we be happy with that > and tell them that they did great and at least they didn't make a D or > F, or should we encourage them to do better because we know they can > make an A or B? Hi todd, depends. If it's a subject they enjoy and like, they'll get good grades automatically. With the shit being fed to them day by day in school though, a C is fair enough IMO. You may encourage them, but don't flog them into learning stuff to flush down the intellectual toilet the hour after the exams. Cheers, Uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

AMEN TO THAT! Possibly the most bitchy un-satisfyable bunch of kids in any sort of gaming genre. There is a thing called positive feedback, and this an area that has never been though of in this community... and then even if its not good or here, i doesnt need deserve a battering.. unless its a game like TOCA RACE DRIVER... which claims to be a realistic sim, but its not even a fun arcade game :) Cool Hand Luke "Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wtHla.7258$[email hidden]...

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> I entered the sim scene dec 99. I bought GPL (well, I got a pirated copy, > and ran around town, trying to find a copy at full price when it was > announced that it was going on nice price - luckily, I got the full priced > version). > > After GPL, there has been the WSC hype. There has been a few demos from > individuals, there has been a few Nascar games from Papy. There has been > LFS, and some efforts from Codemasters. > > The response from the community on (almost) every effort from commercial > companies besides those individuals that spend their spare time trying > programming a car to behave properly on track, has been slautgther. > Everything sucks. Steering, physics... everything. Hardcore sim-ers > encourages ppl *not* to buy a product. > > If I were the Wests. I'd give up on hardcore sim fans. They will never be > satisfied. The Wests may very well make the best sim ever made, but I bet > you $$$ that there will be a lot of critisism if this sim ever is to be > released. "Tire modelling isn't right", "Draft modelling is worse than > N2002", "there is a few graphical glitches", "Deadzone is bad", etc. > > Why on earth would anyone with half a brain or more try to please the > hardcore sim-ers?? When did the hardcore sim-ers give any positive

feedback

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> on anything? Try to please the hardcore sim-er, and you will get flamed > heavily. > > Arcade racers. That's where the money is - if there is any money in games > involving driving. As long as they can keep on track without braking or > letting go of the gas pedal, and AI arent competitable, ppl preferring > arcade racers are satisfied. Any game will do. The hardcore sim-er chops

the

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> head of anyone trying to do a proper sim. > > Badmouthing is easy. Presenting constructive critisism is harder. I guess > most of us should practise more on the latter. That would be of benefit to > all sim eacers. > > Jon Andersen > > > > > > > >

Pro Race Driver (as it is known down here in NZ) could have been really good. just graphics a good, the sound is GREAT. but the Force feed back & A.I let it down big time "ThermosBoy (TM)" <.@.> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 05:41:12 GMT, "Luke Phillips" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > unless its a game like > >TOCA RACE DRIVER... which claims to be a realistic sim, but its not evena > >fun arcade game :) > > I beg to differ :) Major fun, but definitely no sim. In fact, I'm > surprised more haven't commented here on how much fun it is.