Racing Legends Update!

Well more of a non-updating notice, but I haven't seen it mentioned here yet: http://www.west-racing.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=2395&s=76820210001a0a324f5e41b84ab6475a rms

rms wrote: > > Well more of a non-updating notice, but I haven't seen it mentioned here > yet: Interesting read I suppose, although he's not actually saying much :-D, however, this little tidbit worried me slightly.... "being fully aware of the commercial success of titles such as GPL" I think the West's need a new accountant :-D Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

I hope by that statement he means that they knew the lack of commercial success that GPL had. -Stuart Becktell "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > rms wrote: > > > > Well more of a non-updating notice, but I haven't seen it mentioned here > > yet: > > Interesting read I suppose, although he's not actually saying much :-D, > however, this little tidbit worried me slightly.... > > "being fully aware of the commercial success of titles such as GPL" > > I think the West's need a new accountant :-D > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

What rock have you been under since Jan 29 anyway? "rms" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:czN%b.18040$[email hidden]... > Well more of a non-updating notice, but I haven't seen it mentioned here > yet: >http://www.west-racing.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=2395&s=76820210001a0a324f5e41b84ab6475a > > rms > >

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:15:04 GMT, "rms" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Well more of a non-updating notice, but I haven't seen it mentioned here >yet: >http://www.west-racing.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=2395&s=76820210001a0a324f5e41b84ab6475a > >rms > I think it means that they are taking their time, not rushing anything. Just like everyone else it seems in sim racing, ie, pwf. Which is good in the long run, makes the product better, and the endless need to download patch after patch exempt.

what!! is it April 1st:-) Steve

> I think it means that they are taking their time, not rushing > anything. Just like everyone else it seems in sim racing, ie, pwf. > Which is good in the long run, makes the product better, and the > endless need to download patch after patch exempt. I beg to disagree. I believe that the best way of debugging Sims is to release early betas to an enthusiast group ASAP and let them find the holes - as per Live For Speed. Sims are so complicated that there is no way 2 people are going to find all the holes that need patching, even if they spend an additional 5 years debugging after 5 years wrting the code. Where there is such complexity and risk with code, a cyclical methodology is the only way to go. Using a big bang approach is asking for failure, as many government departments will be aware.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:15:04 GMT, "rms" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Well more of a non-updating notice, but I haven't seen it mentioned here > >yet: > >http://www.west-racing.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=2395&s=76820210001

a0a324f5e41b84ab6475a

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> > > >rms > > > > I think it means that they are taking their time, not rushing > anything. Just like everyone else it seems in sim racing, ie, pwf. > Which is good in the long run, makes the product better, and the > endless need to download patch after patch exempt.

Whew......Bartender, I'll have what he's drinking please, seems to be working just fine, thank you.

What does it matter you'll never see anything from these guys, when will you people ever learn?

Actually, GPL has "sold" around 300,000 copies. That is, almost 200,000 full-boat copies were distributed with a magazine, but 100K were legitimate retail sales. The initial "sell thru" was disappointing, around 30K, as compared to the NR series, which eventually reached into the seven-figure range. The suits felt that GPL should have matched, say, IndyCar Racing (& ICR2/CART Racing), which crept into the six-figure range. Thus, the initial 30K (attributable mostly to game-play issues, plus some technical glitches/hurdles) was seen as a crushing defeat and killed the possibility of sequels (despite the fact that a terrible game like Postal, which garnered scathing reviews and racked up a similiar 30K sell-thru, somehow survived to become Postal II...which is an even greater critical and commercial failure). "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > rms wrote: > > > > Well more of a non-updating notice, but I haven't seen it mentioned here > > yet: > > Interesting read I suppose, although he's not actually saying much :-D, > however, this little tidbit worried me slightly.... > > "being fully aware of the commercial success of titles such as GPL" > > I think the West's need a new accountant :-D > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

"rms" <[email hidden]> wrote here on 27 Feb 2004: > Well more of a non-updating notice, but I haven't seen it > mentioned here yet: > http://www.west-racing.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=2395&s=768 > 20210001a0a324f5e41b84ab6475a > > rms Well, I hope he's right, and unlike some I've always believed that the Wests genuinely believe they will get a sim out in the end... but frankly I don't think about it any more. I have no evidence for this, but my inner hunch is that the sim to beat all sims we've been hoping for will never appear, simply because of the comment about needing advanced machines to get the best out of RL. Development is so slow that at the current rate, even a machine barely on the market will be outdated by the time RL is finished, so presumably the Wests would then go back and update everything for the new highest-spec machines... and so on. I haven't quite lost hope... but it's close enough that I'm not really bothered or excited any more. :-/ -- Above address *is* valid - but snip spamtrap to get me to *read*! Support the world's oldest motorsport venue! http://www.shelsley-walsh.co.uk/future.html

David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote here on 28 Feb 2004: <snip> > I haven't quite > lost hope... but it's close enough that I'm not really bothered or > excited any more. :-/ Forgot to add my usual promise - if RL *does* turn up as a finished game, and *does* turn out to be brilliant, then I will most certainly come on this 'ere newsgroup and publicly say, "I was wrong, and I'm very glad I was." :-) -- Above address *is* valid - but snip spamtrap to get me to *read*! Support the world's oldest motorsport venue! http://www.shelsley-walsh.co.uk/future.html

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 22:05:43 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Actually, GPL has "sold" around 300,000 copies. That is, almost 200,000 >full-boat copies were distributed with a magazine, but 100K were legitimate >retail sales. The initial "sell thru" was disappointing, around 30K, as >compared to the NR series, which eventually reached into the seven-figure >range. The suits felt that GPL should have matched, say, IndyCar Racing (& >ICR2/CART Racing), which crept into the six-figure range. Thus, the initial >30K (attributable mostly to game-play issues, plus some technical >glitches/hurdles) was seen as a crushing defeat and killed the possibility >of sequels (despite the fact that a terrible game like Postal, which >garnered scathing reviews and racked up a similiar 30K sell-thru, somehow >survived to become Postal II...which is an even greater critical and >commercial failure).

I bet if GPL 2 were released they could sell 6 figures on the first day. Sim racing is an entirely different market now than it was 6 years ago. Consumer-grade wheels were expensive, hardware wasn't up to the task of doing reasonable physics modelling, and the overall fanbase was nowhere near what it is now. Jason

yes I agree there will most likely never be a need to download any RL patches > I think it means that they are taking their time, not rushing > anything. Just like everyone else it seems in sim racing, ie, pwf. > Which is good in the long run, makes the product better, and the > endless need to download patch after patch exempt.

"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > rms wrote: > > > > Well more of a non-updating notice, but I haven't seen it mentioned here > > yet: > > Interesting read I suppose, although he's not actually saying much :-D, > however, this little tidbit worried me slightly.... > > "being fully aware of the commercial success of titles such as GPL" > > I think the West's need a new accountant :-D > >

Seriously, I have more confidence in Elvis actually being alive than I do that this Racing Legends from this West group will actually raise itself from the dead. LFS is the only bright spot these days. Alanb

In article <Kbc0c.79297$Xp.365034@attbi_s54>, [email hidden] (Alan Bernardo) wrote: > I have more confidence in Elvis actually being alive than I do > that this Racing Legends from this West group will actually raise > itself from the dead. It's not dead, it's restin'! Andrew McP... who still believes in RL. And maybe Santa. And that children are our future.

"Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Andrew McP... who still believes in RL. And maybe Santa. And that children > are our future. And that Michael Jackson has fumbled each and every one.

Steve Smith wrote:

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> > Actually, GPL has "sold" around 300,000 copies. That is, almost 200,000 > full-boat copies were distributed with a magazine, but 100K were legitimate > retail sales. The initial "sell thru" was disappointing, around 30K, as > compared to the NR series, which eventually reached into the seven-figure > range. The suits felt that GPL should have matched, say, IndyCar Racing (& > ICR2/CART Racing), which crept into the six-figure range. Thus, the initial > 30K (attributable mostly to game-play issues, plus some technical > glitches/hurdles) was seen as a crushing defeat and killed the possibility > of sequels (despite the fact that a terrible game like Postal, which > garnered scathing reviews and racked up a similiar 30K sell-thru, somehow > survived to become Postal II...which is an even greater critical and > commercial failure).

Well, my comment about the commercial success of GPL, or lack of, was a tongue in cheek remark really as my take on it has always been that if Papy/Sierra expected it to be highly successful from a stand alone commercial POV, then they were more than slightly delusional, however, I've always looked at it as a "test bed" for the then next generation of physics engine, for which they managed to get, according to you, at least 30 000 paying "beta testers" initially when it mattered to them without risking their milk cow, the Nascar series And from that POV it was a rather successful release I'd say, I'm guessing the feedback from the punters is what made them skip the then already in dev N3 and decided that the time wasn't quite right yet and they gave us N2.5 instead, not to mention that the people involved got to work on something besides Nascar for a while This is not unlike what car manufacturers do, have a new experimental engine that you believe is ready for main stream production but want to make sure, put it in a niche model and let the niche customers suffer the teething problems and release it in mainstream products later on, new break system, new manufacturing technique....the list goes on, you can afford to piss off a few niche customers, but pissing off the mainstream customers is going to hurt your wallet Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:53:52 +0100, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>This is not unlike what car manufacturers do, have a new experimental >engine that you believe is ready for main stream production but want to >make sure, put it in a niche model and let the niche customers suffer >the teething problems and release it in mainstream products later on, >new break system, new manufacturing technique....the list goes on, you >can afford to piss off a few niche customers, but pissing off the >mainstream customers is going to hurt your wallet

Papy should make a GPL 2 and market it like Ford is handling the new GT. Aim specifically for sim enthusiasits, press 50,000 copies of it, charge $250 for it, and promote the hell out of it to give visibility to their company as a sim developer. "Grand Prix Legends 2 - The Pace Car for an Entire Gaming Genre" Jason

Still be easier and cheaper to market and sell an Xbox title at $60-$70 however and sell 250,000+ copies. "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:53:52 +0100, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >This is not unlike what car manufacturers do, have a new experimental > >engine that you believe is ready for main stream production but want to > >make sure, put it in a niche model and let the niche customers suffer > >the teething problems and release it in mainstream products later on, > >new break system, new manufacturing technique....the list goes on, you > >can afford to piss off a few niche customers, but pissing off the > >mainstream customers is going to hurt your wallet > > Papy should make a GPL 2 and market it like Ford is handling the new > GT. Aim specifically for sim enthusiasits, press 50,000 copies of it, > charge $250 for it, and promote the hell out of it to give visibility > to their company as a sim developer. > > "Grand Prix Legends 2 - The Pace Car for an Entire Gaming Genre" > > Jason

The reason given for the long time and high cost of developing GPL was that the NR series needed a new physics engine, and rather than pulling worker bees off the assembly line (NR was the cash cow), the suits detailed a Skunk Works, headed by Kaemmer, to whip up the new code (much as Apple did when Jobs & his disciples developed the Lisa in secret). In this they succeeded, but management felt like they'd been snookered into releasing a game (GPL) that the marketing wonks never believed in. The N2003 engine is a further refinement of GPL's physics, not a whole new engine. "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Steve Smith wrote: > > > > Actually, GPL has "sold" around 300,000 copies. That is, almost 200,000 > > full-boat copies were distributed with a magazine, but 100K werelegitimate > > retail sales. The initial "sell thru" was disappointing, around 30K, as > > compared to the NR series, which eventually reached into theseven-figure > > range. The suits felt that GPL should have matched, say, IndyCar Racing(& > > ICR2/CART Racing), which crept into the six-figure range. Thus, theinitial > > 30K (attributable mostly to game-play issues, plus some technical > > glitches/hurdles) was seen as a crushing defeat and killed thepossibility > > of sequels (despite the fact that a terrible game like Postal, which > > garnered scathing reviews and racked up a similiar 30K sell-thru,somehow

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> > survived to become Postal II...which is an even greater critical and > > commercial failure). > > Well, my comment about the commercial success of GPL, or lack of, was a > tongue in cheek remark really as my take on it has always been that if > Papy/Sierra expected it to be highly successful from a stand alone > commercial POV, then they were more than slightly delusional, however, > I've always looked at it as a "test bed" for the then next generation of > physics engine, for which they managed to get, according to you, at > least 30 000 paying "beta testers" initially when it mattered to them > without risking their milk cow, the Nascar series > > And from that POV it was a rather successful release I'd say, I'm > guessing the feedback from the punters is what made them skip the then > already in dev N3 and decided that the time wasn't quite right yet and > they gave us N2.5 instead, not to mention that the people involved got > to work on something besides Nascar for a while > > This is not unlike what car manufacturers do, have a new experimental > engine that you believe is ready for main stream production but want to > make sure, put it in a niche model and let the niche customers suffer > the teething problems and release it in mainstream products later on, > new break system, new manufacturing technique....the list goes on, you > can afford to piss off a few niche customers, but pissing off the > mainstream customers is going to hurt your wallet > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Steve Smith wrote:

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> > The reason given for the long time and high cost of developing GPL was that > the NR series needed a new physics engine, and rather than pulling worker > bees off the assembly line (NR was the cash cow), the suits detailed a Skunk > Works, headed by Kaemmer, to whip up the new code (much as Apple did when > Jobs & his disciples developed the Lisa in secret). In this they succeeded, > but management felt like they'd been snookered into releasing a game (GPL) > that the marketing wonks never believed in. The N2003 engine is a further > refinement of GPL's physics, not a whole new engine.

Exactly, so as a niche product paving the way for the new physics engine it was actually quite successful even if it didn't produce an overwhelming revenue for the shareholders I would have loved to be in the room the day DK and the other guys convinced the suits to let them release the new physics engine as a 1967 F1 sim, I can imagine that took some creative persuading :-D Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Steve Smith wrote: > > > > The reason given for the long time and high cost of developing GPL wasthat > > the NR series needed a new physics engine, and rather than pullingworker > > bees off the assembly line (NR was the cash cow), the suits detailed aSkunk > > Works, headed by Kaemmer, to whip up the new code (much as Apple didwhen > > Jobs & his disciples developed the Lisa in secret). In this theysucceeded, > > but management felt like they'd been snookered into releasing a game(GPL) > > that the marketing wonks never believed in. The N2003 engine is afurther

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> > refinement of GPL's physics, not a whole new engine. > > Exactly, so as a niche product paving the way for the new physics engine > it was actually quite successful even if it didn't produce an > overwhelming revenue for the shareholders > > I would have loved to be in the room the day DK and the other guys > convinced the suits to let them release the new physics engine as a 1967 > F1 sim, I can imagine that took some creative persuading :-D > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Paving the way ? I would bet a new engine would have come along anyway for the Nx series.

[email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> In article <Kbc0c.79297$Xp.365034@attbi_s54>, [email hidden] (Alan > Bernardo) wrote: > > > I have more confidence in Elvis actually being alive than I do > > that this Racing Legends from this West group will actually raise > > itself from the dead. > > It's not dead, it's restin'! >

Beautiful bird, the Lotus 49B - lovely plumage ;)... Kendt - pinin' for the F(j)ords...

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) writes: >Andrew McP... who still believes in RL. And maybe Santa. And that children >are our future. I work at a university. If *those* kids are our future, we're screwed... Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 02:33:14 GMT, "Alan Bernardo" <[email hidden]> wrote: >LFS is the only bright spot these days. LFS is a lite brite peg in Mammoth Cave. I'd much rather have the light towers at PNC Park. Jason

Steve Smith wrote: > The reason given for the long time and high cost of developing GPL was that > the NR series needed a new physics engine, and rather than pulling worker > bees off the assembly line (NR was the cash cow), the suits detailed a Skunk > Works, headed by Kaemmer, to whip up the new code (much as Apple did when > Jobs & his disciples developed the Lisa in secret). Um, Lisa was never a skunk works-type project beyond normal corporate secrecy; it was a major design project. The Macintosh, in its initial form, was more of an under-the-management-radar project at first (and I assume you meant the Mac here). When the Lisa bombed, it became the flagship project - although at the time it still was the Apple II that brought the money in. Regards, Rudy (Amateur computer historian and Lisa/Mac owner ;)

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > I work at a university. If *those* kids are our future, > we're screwed... I'd like to agree with you, but if this generation of youth is any more screwed up than any other (which is debatable) it's because of the crazy world we've all contributed to in some small way... even if that's by doing nothing. Ok, that's the serious stuff over, back to theoretical software debates ;-) Andrew McP

Yer right, of course. Jobs flew a pirate flag while his team developed the Mac...which is prolly one reason why Scully fired him. "Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c1u0bs$k32$[email hidden]... > Steve Smith wrote: > > The reason given for the long time and high cost of developing GPL wasthat > > the NR series needed a new physics engine, and rather than pullingworker > > bees off the assembly line (NR was the cash cow), the suits detailed aSkunk > > Works, headed by Kaemmer, to whip up the new code (much as Apple didwhen

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> > Jobs & his disciples developed the Lisa in secret). > > > Um, Lisa was never a skunk works-type project beyond normal corporate > secrecy; it was a major design project. The Macintosh, in its initial > form, was more of an under-the-management-radar project at first (and I > assume you meant the Mac here). When the Lisa bombed, it became the > flagship project - although at the time it still was the Apple II that > brought the money in. > > Regards, Rudy > (Amateur computer historian and Lisa/Mac owner ;) >