Racing Legends

There is an awful lot of stuff on the West bros web pages about Racing Legends including details of how the products will be wrapped! Some very nice pictures of cars a year or so (I guess ) after GPL but that doesn't do anything for the game, sorry, simulation. Is this another bundle of hype like WSC, surely they are playing with us aren't they? Why do I need to know now what the add-on packs will look like, surely we want a game (simulation) not a bunch of pretty boxes. Mind you theres a lot of vapour ware that will fit in those boxes! Andi.

BLASPHEMY !!!!! "Andi Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah704g$184$[email hidden]... > There is an awful lot of stuff on the West bros web pages about Racing > Legends including details of how the products will be wrapped! Some very > nice pictures of cars a year or so (I guess ) after GPL but that doesn'tdo > anything for the game, sorry, simulation. Is this another bundle of hype > like WSC, surely they are playing with us aren't they? Why do I need toknow > now what the add-on packs will look like, surely we want a game(simulation) > not a bunch of pretty boxes. Mind you theres a lot of vapour ware thatwill > fit in those boxes! > > Andi. > > >

"Andi Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah704g$184$[email hidden]... > There is an awful lot of stuff on the West bros web pages about Racing > Legends including details of how the products will be wrapped! Some very > nice pictures of cars a year or so (I guess ) after GPL but that doesn'tdo > anything for the game, sorry, simulation. Is this another bundle of hype > like WSC, surely they are playing with us aren't they? Why do I need toknow > now what the add-on packs will look like, surely we want a game(simulation) > not a bunch of pretty boxes. Mind you theres a lot of vapour ware thatwill > fit in those boxes! > > Andi. > I met and spoke to both Chris and Tony at Goodwood. I was convinced that they are completely genuine. After all what would be the point of spending a lot of their own money to produce some very smart flyers and even smarter information packs on vapour ware. Having spoken to them and read through both the flyer and the info pack, I'm sure they are ommitted to the project and genuine fans of sim racing. They are also investing a huge amount of their own time (12-14 hours a day) coding RL with no income at the moment. Once again, why would they do this if they weren't going to release something? I see RL as the sim racing equivalent of X-Plane, as do Chris and Tony. In case you aren't familiar with X-Plane, it is an advanced flight sim that can model any aircraft that has been produced by one programmer. It has a huge following and is rated by a lot of people as being better than the MS Flight Sim line. This is a proven business model that can work. We just need to have a bit more patience. Phil --- Race Sim Central Administrator http://www.racesimcentral.com

Phil....if you had had the same conversation with Chris and Tony in 1998,would they not have been just as convincing about WSC...? Andy

"jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:EzDZ8.58996$[email hidden]... >> Why do I need to know now what the add-on packs will look like, >> surely we want a game (simulation) not a bunch of pretty boxes. >> Mind you theres a lot of vapour ware that will fit in those boxes! > BLASPHEMY !!!!! <RAS Official> You have been found guilty by the elders of the town of demeaning the name of our Lord Wests, and so, as a blasphemer,... <RAS> Ooooh! <RAS Official> ...you are to be stoned to death. <RAS> Ahh! <RAS Poster> Look. I-- I'd had a lovely supper, and all I said to my wife was, 'I wonder if Racing Legends will see the light of day' <RAS> Oooooh! <RAS Official> Blasphemy! He's said it again! <RAS> Yes! Yes, he did! He did!... <RAS Official> Did you hear him?! <RAS> Yes! Yes, we did! We did!...

OFF WITH HIS HEAD !!!!! "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:B1FZ8.8952$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:EzDZ8.58996$[email hidden]... > > >> Why do I need to know now what the add-on packs will look like, > >> surely we want a game (simulation) not a bunch of pretty boxes. > >> Mind you theres a lot of vapour ware that will fit in those boxes! > > > BLASPHEMY !!!!! > > <RAS Official> You have been found guilty by the elders of the town of

demeaning

Quoted text (9 lines)

> the name of our Lord Wests, and so, as a blasphemer,... > > <RAS> Ooooh! > > <RAS Official> ...you are to be stoned to death. > > <RAS> Ahh! > > <RAS Poster> Look. I-- I'd had a lovely supper, and all I said to my wife

was,

Quoted text (13 lines)

> 'I wonder if Racing Legends will see the light of day' > > <RAS> Oooooh! > > <RAS Official> Blasphemy! He's said it again! > > <RAS> Yes! Yes, he did! He did!... > > <RAS Official> Did you hear him?! > > <RAS> Yes! Yes, we did! We did!... > >

The people who are attacking the Wests about WRC are simply doing so because they want to punish the brothers for not "delivering the goods" previously. They were given something to look forward to, then, for whatever reasons, WSC died in the ass. The posters concerned can't physically belt the crap out of Chris and Tony, so instead, they post messages saying things like "Seen this all before with WRC", etc. For me, I was looking forward to it, it didn't end up happening, shit happens, so be it. The Wests obviously didn't set out to screw a bunch of people who love driving sims, and that's obviously not the agenda this time either. Nothing is ever 100% certain.....until RL is released, it isn't released...fair enough......but for christs sake, some of you need a fucking psychiatrist. "Andrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah768j$r3s$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Phil....if you had had the same conversation with Chris and Tony in > 1998,would they not have been just as convincing about WSC...? > > > Andy > >

I don't think anyone is trying to "punish" the West Bros. They simply don't believe a word they say. Huge difference. The West's have given us nothing else to go on. Besides, their Beta tester CONcept is fataly flawed. "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JJFZ8.3898$[email hidden]... > The people who are attacking the Wests about WRC are simply doing sobecause > they want to punish the brothers for not "delivering the goods"previously.

Quoted text (13 lines)

> They were given something to look forward to, then, for whatever reasons, > WSC died in the ass. The posters concerned can't physically belt the crap > out of Chris and Tony, so instead, they post messages saying things like > "Seen this all before with WRC", etc. > > For me, I was looking forward to it, it didn't end up happening, shit > happens, so be it. > > The Wests obviously didn't set out to screw a bunch of people who love > driving sims, and that's obviously not the agenda this time either. > > Nothing is ever 100% certain.....until RL is released, it isn't > released...fair enough......but for christs sake, some of you need a

fucking

Quoted text (14 lines)

> psychiatrist. > > > "Andrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ah768j$r3s$[email hidden]... > > Phil....if you had had the same conversation with Chris and Tony in > > 1998,would they not have been just as convincing about WSC...? > > > > > > Andy > > > > > >

"Wayne Bradley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah79vg$gl$[email hidden]... > I don't think anyone is trying to "punish" the West Bros. They simplydon't > believe a word they say. Huge difference. The West's have given usnothing > else to go on. Besides, their Beta tester CONcept is fataly flawed. Why? Whats wrong with splitting the cost of a title to pay a part for beta testing, then a part to upgrade to release edition? Frankly - is the inverse of a con imho. Doug

"Andi Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah704g$184$[email hidden]... > surely they are playing with us aren't they? Yeah - thats right. They've spent hundreds of pounds on hosting and bandwidth, spent thousands on publicity material for goodwood, developed car models and circuits just for some screenshots, and visited motor manufacturers at Goodwood for 'a bit of a laugh' Doug

Andrew, If the West bros not been seriously been compromised and screwed about by a major player, would it not be possible that we might be running the very same on our rigs now? MS "Andrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah768j$r3s$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Phil....if you had had the same conversation with Chris and Tony in > 1998,would they not have been just as convincing about WSC...? > > > Andy > >

> I read that the author of X-plane is working on a car sim. Would you know > anything about that ? He announced that he was doing an automotive version of X-Plane using the same GFX engine as XP on his Yahoo Group two months or so ago.... "From: austin meyer <austin@x...> Date: Thu May 23, 2002 4:50 am Subject: WHY HAVE I BEEN SO QUIET FOR 5 DAYS? As some of you will notice, a WHOLE FIVE DAYS HAS GONE BY WITHOUT A MAJOR X-PLANE UPDATE. Obviously, this indicates something very strange is going on. No, I am not on vacation (I don't take vacations). I am getting pretty close to release X-PLANE AUTOMOTIVE, which is just exactly what the name implies. I am driving virtual Corvettes at 170 mph across X-Plane-style landscape now, with all the physics accuracy (and flexibility) that is found in X-Plane. (turbine motor on the 'Vette, anyone?) This sim uses the current (latest) X-Plane rendering engine and some elements of the "flight" engine. In addition to total customization of the car, you can edit your terrain and tracks to race on. The "Plane-Maker" and "World-Maker" that let you do this are built right into the sim though, so you can INSTANTLY try out new track and car concepts. It will be a few weeks I think before I release, but the sim is coming along fine. So, for all the people that have asked for a driving version of X-Plane (a LOT) you will soon get your wish!" Doug

And after that we must have a trial !!!. Elrikk "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gxFZ8.59664$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (28 lines)

> OFF WITH HIS HEAD !!!!! > > > > > "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:B1FZ8.8952$[email hidden]... > > > > "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:EzDZ8.58996$[email hidden]... > > > > >> Why do I need to know now what the add-on packs will look like, > > >> surely we want a game (simulation) not a bunch of pretty boxes. > > >> Mind you theres a lot of vapour ware that will fit in those boxes! > > > > > BLASPHEMY !!!!! > > > > <RAS Official> You have been found guilty by the elders of the town of > demeaning > > the name of our Lord Wests, and so, as a blasphemer,... > > > > <RAS> Ooooh! > > > > <RAS Official> ...you are to be stoned to death. > > > > <RAS> Ahh! > > > > <RAS Poster> Look. I-- I'd had a lovely supper, and all I said to my

wife

Quoted text (17 lines)

> was, > > 'I wonder if Racing Legends will see the light of day' > > > > <RAS> Oooooh! > > > > <RAS Official> Blasphemy! He's said it again! > > > > <RAS> Yes! Yes, he did! He did!... > > > > <RAS Official> Did you hear him?! > > > > <RAS> Yes! Yes, we did! We did!... > > > > > > >

"Phil Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah721o$q5viv$[email hidden]... <snip> > > I see RL as the sim racing equivalent of X-Plane, as do Chris and Tony. In > case you aren't familiar with X-Plane, it is an advanced flight sim thatcan > model any aircraft that has been produced by one programmer. It has a huge > following and is rated by a lot of people as being better than the MSFlight

Quoted text (9 lines)

> Sim line. This is a proven business model that can work. We just need to > have a bit more patience. > > Phil > --- > Race Sim Central Administrator > http://www.racesimcentral.com > >

I read that the author of X-plane is working on a car sim. Would you know anything about that ? Elrikk

> > > <RAS Official> You have been found guilty by the elders of the town of > > > demeaning the name of our Lord Wests, and so, as a blasphemer,... > > OFF WITH HIS HEAD !!!!! > And after that we must have a trial !!!. From Monty Python to Blackadder in 3 posts! <Blackadder> That Farrow bloke you executed today, are you sure he's dead? <Baldrick> Well I chopped his head off, that usually does the trick.

Thanks for the quick info. Elrikk "Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:LiGZ8.18835$VP6.1313029@stones... > > > He announced that he was doing an automotive version of X-Plane using the > same GFX engine as XP on his Yahoo Group two months or so ago.... > <snip>

"Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:y8GZ8.18833$VP6.1312599@stones...

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > "Wayne Bradley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ah79vg$gl$[email hidden]... > > I don't think anyone is trying to "punish" the West Bros. They simply > don't > > believe a word they say. Huge difference. The West's have given us > nothing > > else to go on. Besides, their Beta tester CONcept is fataly flawed. > > Why? > > Whats wrong with splitting the cost of a title to pay a part for beta > testing, then a part to upgrade to release edition? > > Frankly - is the inverse of a con imho. >

You don't consider leather wallets, e-cards and all the other "shiny things" a bit of a con ?

Perhaps we should ask Neil Charlton (see above FF post). He claims to have a beta copy. <sniff> "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah7dar$qm016$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (20 lines)

> > "Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:y8GZ8.18833$VP6.1312599@stones... > > > > "Wayne Bradley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:ah79vg$gl$[email hidden]... > > > I don't think anyone is trying to "punish" the West Bros. They simply > > don't > > > believe a word they say. Huge difference. The West's have given us > > nothing > > > else to go on. Besides, their Beta tester CONcept is fataly flawed. > > > > Why? > > > > Whats wrong with splitting the cost of a title to pay a part for beta > > testing, then a part to upgrade to release edition? > > > > Frankly - is the inverse of a con imho. > > > You don't consider leather wallets, e-cards and all the other "shiny

things" a bit of a > con ? > >

"jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WKGZ8.59697$[email hidden]... > Perhaps we should ask Neil Charlton (see above FF post). He claims to havea > beta copy. <sniff> > > Since Chris or was it Tony (I can't tell them apart) told me that RL was nowhere near the beta stage I think you should take Neil's comment with a huge pinch of salt. Phil --- Race Sim Central Administrator http://www.racesimcentral.com

lol do ya think? :) "Phil Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah7dk0$p6d98$[email hidden]... > "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:WKGZ8.59697$[email hidden]... > > Perhaps we should ask Neil Charlton (see above FF post). He claims tohave

Quoted text (15 lines)

> a > > beta copy. <sniff> > > > > > > Since Chris or was it Tony (I can't tell them apart) told me that RL was > nowhere near the beta stage I think you should take Neil's comment with a > huge pinch of salt. > > Phil > --- > Race Sim Central Administrator > http://www.racesimcentral.com > >

> You don't consider leather wallets, e-cards and all the other "shinythings" a bit of a > con ? You dont HAVE to buy those. Read the bloody website for gods sake - it says as much... "We will have available a wide range of binders for you to choose from ranging from economy plastic, through stylish modern composite materials to high quality, embossed leather binders. " But then again - you wont be buying it anyway - so why would you care? Doug

On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:39:51 +0100, "Phil Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (8 lines)

>I see RL as the sim racing equivalent of X-Plane, as do Chris and Tony. In >case you aren't familiar with X-Plane, it is an advanced flight sim that can >model any aircraft that has been produced by one programmer. It has a huge >following and is rated by a lot of people as being better than the MS Flight >Sim line. This is a proven business model that can work. We just need to >have a bit more patience. > >Phil

It's is thought of that way by a few zealots, yes. But in fact, X-Plane is not so great at all as it does nothing really well and is very generic. It's a tinkerer's toy realy. Yes, I have X-Plane.

"Phil Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah721o$q5viv$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (21 lines)

> "Andi Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ah704g$184$[email hidden]... > > There is an awful lot of stuff on the West bros web pages about Racing > > Legends including details of how the products will be wrapped! Some very > > nice pictures of cars a year or so (I guess ) after GPL but that doesn't > do > > anything for the game, sorry, simulation. Is this another bundle of hype > > like WSC, surely they are playing with us aren't they? Why do I need to > know > > now what the add-on packs will look like, surely we want a game > (simulation) > > not a bunch of pretty boxes. Mind you theres a lot of vapour ware that > will > > fit in those boxes! > > > > Andi. > > > > > I met and spoke to both Chris and Tony at Goodwood. I was convinced that > they are completely genuine. After all what would be the point of spending

a > lot of their own money to produce some very smart flyers and even smarter > information packs on vapour ware. > > Having spoken to them and read through both the flyer and the info pack,I'm

Quoted text (7 lines)

> sure they are ommitted to the project and genuine fans of sim racing. They > are also investing a huge amount of their own time (12-14 hours a day) > coding RL with no income at the moment. Once again, why would they do this > if they weren't going to release something? > > I see RL as the sim racing equivalent of X-Plane, as do Chris and Tony. In > case you aren't familiar with X-Plane, it is an advanced flight sim that

can > model any aircraft that has been produced by one programmer. It has a huge > following and is rated by a lot of people as being better than the MSFlight > Sim line. This is a proven business model that can work. We just need to > have a bit more patience. > Phil, I don't mean single you out, but in one of your other posts you said one of the Wests told you that, "RL was nowhere near the beta stage." Whatever their point, they indeed seem to be spending a lot of money on Vaporware ;). I don't doubt their integrity or their intentions, but I am quite skeptical that they can even come close to what they have promoted on their web site in any sort of timely fashion ...and some of the features that people are dreaming about sound like pipe dreams to me. This thing *is* intended to run on PCs, correct? People on both sides of the issue are jumping way ahead of the starting gun here. It seems to me, that if they are that far away from a beta, then I wouldn't doubt that the "Core" could be a full year or more away. Not to mention all of the free upgrades to include all of the standard features included in most games. I wouldn't be surprised if we are still waiting after 3 or more years for the "Standard Features" to be finalized (bug free), much less any of the Premium add-ons. Now, this isn't intended as a slam on the West's abilities or anything, rather just the way that I am approaching this whole thing. As you can tell, I'm not getting overly excited just yet, heheh. I don't doubt that they will eventually release *something*, but when and exactly what it entails is another story all together... Although I don't really know anything about the Wests. What previous games did they code? Might I have heard of any of their previous projects? What company were they with before their Empire deal? I wasn't around sim racing when the WSC whirlwind landed and evaporated, so maybe someone out there can fill me in. I keep hearing about the X-Plane comparison. I don't know much about it. But just on the surface, it appears to me that an advanced auto sim is somewhat more complicated than a flight sim. I mean, you have the physics, aerodynamics, weather, etc., same as a flight sim, but then you also have complex suspensions and most importantly, the tire model. Then add in multiple surfaces and everything else mentioned on their site and I'm thinking it's going to be one ambitions project. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't X-Plane been in development for years? Racing Legends may eventually end up being the "End All, Be All" of racing sims, but I won't be surprised if doesn't take a while to get there with some misfires along the way. The thing that concerns me is the way that they are starting out. They seem to be trying to raise Venture Capital from their customers on the front end with all the Fliers, Info Packs, selling the beta and proposing full price for a "Core" product with free upgrades available at some point in the future. I think that they are going to limit their market share significantly with this approach. They seem to be applying the full-blown Schmooze Deal like it's some sort of corporate sales pitch, but then are developing it on a shoestring. I think a lot of people are seeing the inconsistencies and it isn't garnering a lot of confidence with the "Hopeful Skeptics." I think it would have been much better if they would have come clean with the community and said, "Look people, the deal with Empire went bad and WSC is no more. What we have now is the same modular, open-ended, high-realism Racing Sim Concept, but we are going to have to start this thing off small. I hope everyone who is interested will gather and support this effort as we really believe this could end up being something really special." The way they are doing it now appears to be nothing but Smoke and Mirrors to many. If they then said, "We are very short of funds at the moment, so what we are going to do is sell a "preview" version to those who want to support the development of this project. The fee will be counted towards the price of the full sim when it is released," I think it would have gained a lot more support throughout community. Not that it doesn't have a lot already, but it could be better. Personally, I'm not much interested in paying any significant amount for a beta unless it is a true beta (full featured with only bug squishing to be done), and even then, I wouldn't take the hard-core professional exterminator approach, I'd just mostly be playing around like everyone else, heheh. What I would like to see would be an installment payment method to match the "Evolution" of the game. I mean, charge maybe $20 for the "beta" and then charge $10-$20 for each upgrade all the way through v1.00. I'd probably be willing to spend $200 or so over a couple to three years with this method, whereas I'm rather unlikely to pony up $150 or so for only a "Core" with free upgrades to come at some "future date". Maybe they could employ both methods. Have an upfront fee of $150 (or whatever) that the "Faithful" could buy and get all the standard upgrades for free while those on the installment plan would have to spend a total of $200 over the entire development period. (The overall price of the installments would have to be set beforehand so people would know what to expect.) The people paying installments would have the confidence that they will only be paying for what they know they want and can get out at any time, while those who pay upfront get a break for essentially loaning the West's a little Venture Capital. But, I'm sure they've already though of these things... Dave Boyle

"Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MaHZ8.18844$VP6.1314862@stones...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > > You don't consider leather wallets, e-cards and all the other "shiny > things" a bit of a > > con ? > > You dont HAVE to buy those. > > Read the bloody website for gods sake - it says as much... > > "We will have available a wide range of binders for you to choose from > ranging from economy plastic, through stylish modern composite materials

to

Quoted text (7 lines)

> high quality, embossed leather binders. " > > But then again - you wont be buying it anyway - so why would you care? > > Doug > >

The point is, why are they even wasting time thinking about this stuff? I wouldn't have spent Minute Zero on this stuff at this stage in the development. Cook the meat and potatoes before you start adding the parsley... Dave

Oh ye of little faith! BK "Andi Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah704g$184$[email hidden]... >...............Mind you theres a lot of vapour ware that will > fit in those boxes!

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> writes: > Oh ye of little faith! Wow, Bruce! The almighty sarcastic one from down under. welcome back :) -- Olav Malmin remove .spam when replying

i would have thought the parsley went in before the cooking... "db" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%qJZ8.143728$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (33 lines)

> > "Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:MaHZ8.18844$VP6.1314862@stones... > > > > > You don't consider leather wallets, e-cards and all the other "shiny > > things" a bit of a > > > con ? > > > > You dont HAVE to buy those. > > > > Read the bloody website for gods sake - it says as much... > > > > "We will have available a wide range of binders for you to choose from > > ranging from economy plastic, through stylish modern composite materials > to > > high quality, embossed leather binders. " > > > > But then again - you wont be buying it anyway - so why would you care? > > > > Doug > > > > > > The point is, why are they even wasting time thinking about this stuff? I > wouldn't have spent Minute Zero on this stuff at this stage in the > development. > > Cook the meat and potatoes before you start adding the parsley... > > > Dave > >

On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 06:37:56 +1000, "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Nothing is ever 100% certain.....until RL is released, it isn't >released...fair enough......but for christs sake, some of you need a fucking >psychiatrist. I can recommend mine, he helped me getting over this Gp*l problem. Andre

On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:25:30 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Oh ye of little faith! > >BK Whoa, you're still alive :) Andre

>> You don't consider leather wallets, e-cards and all the other >> "shiny things" a bit of a con ? > You dont HAVE to buy those. i like this idea. i remember a friend buying infidel (text adventure) for the atari many (many) years ago, and the box included a map, a letter (in envelope), a hotel key fob, and many other goodies which where all related to and (probably) necessary for the game. made for a much fuller experience. i bought some pc s/w the other day, and it was just a disc in a plastic case. made me want to cry. i welcome the extra physical goodies. pricing will tell us if they're a con or not. i'll get my slippers. nostalgic dr martin.

Errr.... yeah, sorry 'bout that. It seemed kinda wicked and funny when I wrote it but in hindsight was ill-advised. There are several zealots at my door as I write. I repent! For the record, I probably fall into the bracket of zealot myself and will pay for the beta when it arrives. I blame society for my actions. Regards "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WKGZ8.59697$[email hidden]... > Perhaps we should ask Neil Charlton (see above FF post). He claims to havea > beta copy. <sniff> > >[snip]

> > > You don't consider leather wallets, e-cards and all the other "shinythings" a bit of a > con ? Not when it is categorically stated that there will be alternatives. You pays yer money and takes yer choice. MS > >

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Oh ye of little faith! Greetings Bruce. It's always nice to see an old buddy come back to the fold. BTW. Ye is actually spelt, you <G> MS

> Whoa, you're still alive :) Barely! He's 83 you know :-) MS

On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:49:07 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted text (11 lines)

>i like this idea. i remember a friend buying infidel (text adventure) >for the atari many (many) years ago, and the box included a map, a >letter (in envelope), a hotel key fob, and many other goodies which >where all related to and (probably) necessary for the game. made for >a much fuller experience. > >i bought some pc s/w the other day, and it was just a disc in a >plastic case. made me want to cry. > >i welcome the extra physical goodies. pricing will tell us if they're >a con or not.

The extras in the Infocom adventures were basically their copy protection. I had a couple of them too, and they always came with external goodies that gave info/clues needed to complete the game.

On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:38:04 -0400, Codex <[email hidden]> wrote: >It's is thought of that way by a few zealots, yes. But in fact, >X-Plane is not so great at all as it does nothing really well and is >very generic. It's a tinkerer's toy realy. Yes, I have X-Plane. Well said. X-Plane has OK flight models, but it has horrible landscapes. I used to like flying the wide variety of planes, but always found myself going back to Flight Simulator and even Flight Unlimited 3 for the more realistic ground textures and cockpit views. The last X-Plane upgrade I downloaded involved the claim of totally new land detail/elevation and texturing, making it better than anything else out there. What it actually delivered was the same flat landscape with rows of perfectly aligned houses, streets with all 90 degree corners and little businesses that were repeated every 5th corner out into the horizon. That landmark upgrade was interesting for about 5 minutes. If you want to race your "turbine Corvette" over a perfectly flat landscape with cut and past scenery and 90 degree corners, the X-Plane car sim is the thing for you.

> The point is, why are they even wasting time thinking about this stuff? I > wouldn't have spent Minute Zero on this stuff at this stage in the > development. > > Cook the meat and potatoes before you start adding the parsley... To get car and track licences , they have to impress track and manufacturer bosses - show them something like that they will be impressed. Doug

Thank you Mark, and Andre, and Olav. Alive, but only just. As you say, Mark, 83. :) I still have GPL on my PC - it's the only "game" which has never, ever, been removed. Perhaps - but only "perhaps" - RLegends will be treated with the same reverence. I sincerely hope so. Que sera, sera. :) Bruce. ------------------

On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:07:09 +0000 (UTC), "Mark Seery" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > >> Whoa, you're still alive :) > >Barely! He's 83 you know :-) > >MS

Hence the 'Whoa' :) Andre

Doug, From my perspective the money that the Wests have spent on hosting, Bandwidth, publicity material, and shirts, could have been better spent by putting it towards the development costs of RL. It's one thing for companies with capitial to promote their future products, but quite another for the Wests to do so, when capital is in such short supply. They could have just as easily posted right here, and or given multiple interviews at the major auto simming sites. Frankly, at the stage that RL is at, there really isn't any point to have gone through all the effort. As you have already pointed out, the beta is no where near being ready for release. It seems to me that the West bros really enjoy all the hype both pro & cons. Joel Willstein -- "If you can leave black marks on a straight from the time you exit a corner till the time you brake for the next turn , then you have enough horsepower." Mark Donohue "Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fhGZ8.18834$xU5.1174425@wards... > > "Andi Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ah704g$184$[email hidden]... > > surely they are playing with us aren't they? > > Yeah - thats right. They've spent hundreds of pounds on hosting and > bandwidth, spent thousands on publicity material for goodwood, developed car > models and circuits just for some screenshots, and visited motor > manufacturers at Goodwood for 'a bit of a laugh' > > Doug > > >

I read somewhere that written complaints against TV programs are multiplied by 10,000 or so to get a feel for how the real public feel (ie those who couldn't be bothered to write in). So, with say 10 complaints they assume 100,000 people feel the same. On that basis Chris/Tony you have probably got 310,000 copies of RL already sold (I'm seeing 31 posts in this thread at the moment), that's somewhat more than the initial sell of GPL. It's probably worth getting it done. My original comment was really around the excessive (IMHO) attention to the pretty bits of RL. Get the game together and then we'll see how we should buy it. Best wishes for the success of RL it sounds really good. Can't wait, no, really. Andi. Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted text (10 lines)

> On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:25:30 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Oh ye of little faith! > > > >BK > > Whoa, you're still alive :) > > Andre

One thing to bear in mind is that a lot of the publicity and presence is not aimed at us, the sim racing community, but at prospective licensers. If you were Ferrari or Silverstone, would you give a license to or even speak to someone who turns up with an idea on the back of a cigarette packet? "Joel A. Willstein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:xRWZ8.93819$[email hidden]... > Doug, > > From my perspective the money that the Wests have spent on hosting, > Bandwidth, publicity material, and shirts, could have been better spent by > putting it towards the development costs of RL. It's one thing for > companies with capitial to promote their future products, but quiteanother > for the Wests to do so, when capital is in such short supply. > > They could have just as easily posted right here, and or givenmultiple > interviews at the major auto simming sites. Frankly, at the stage that RLis > at, there really isn't any point to have gone through all the effort. Asyou > have already pointed out, the beta is no where near being ready forrelease. > > It seems to me that the West bros really enjoy all the hype both pro&

Quoted text (8 lines)

> cons. > > Joel Willstein > > -- > > > "If you can leave black marks on a straight from the time you exit a

corner

Quoted text (24 lines)

> till the time you brake for the next turn > , then you have enough horsepower." > Mark Donohue > > > "Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:fhGZ8.18834$xU5.1174425@wards... > > > > "Andi Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:ah704g$184$[email hidden]... > > > surely they are playing with us aren't they? > > > > Yeah - thats right. They've spent hundreds of pounds on hosting and > > bandwidth, spent thousands on publicity material for goodwood, developed > car > > models and circuits just for some screenshots, and visited motor > > manufacturers at Goodwood for 'a bit of a laugh' > > > > Doug > > > > > > > >

On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:35:00 GMT, Tim O <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (16 lines)

>Well said. X-Plane has OK flight models, but it has horrible >landscapes. I used to like flying the wide variety of planes, but >always found myself going back to Flight Simulator and even Flight >Unlimited 3 for the more realistic ground textures and cockpit views. >The last X-Plane upgrade I downloaded involved the claim of totally >new land detail/elevation and texturing, making it better than >anything else out there. > >What it actually delivered was the same flat landscape with rows of >perfectly aligned houses, streets with all 90 degree corners and >little businesses that were repeated every 5th corner out into the >horizon. That landmark upgrade was interesting for about 5 minutes. > >If you want to race your "turbine Corvette" over a perfectly flat >landscape with cut and past scenery and 90 degree corners, the X-Plane >car sim is the thing for you.

Yea, I've never bothered to try the latest version, and don't plan on bothering either. About the only thing I really like in X-Plane is trying to land the space shuttle from low orbit, and I gues it's worth having for just that, but the generic cockpits and landscape just does not float my boat (or plane) and I doubt that is the model RL is going for either so the comarison should not be made.

On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:09:09 -0400, "Joel A. Willstein" <[email hidden]> wrote: > It seems to me that the West bros really enjoy all the hype both pro & >cons. > >Joel Willstein As the cliche' says, "any publicity is *good* publicity".

"Andi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> I read somewhere that written complaints against TV programs are > multiplied by 10,000 or so to get a feel for how the real public feel > (ie those who couldn't be bothered to write in). So, with say 10 > complaints they assume 100,000 people feel the same. > > On that basis Chris/Tony you have probably got 310,000 copies of RL > already sold (I'm seeing 31 posts in this thread at the moment), > that's somewhat more than the initial sell of GPL. It's probably worth > getting it done. > >

"You cannot be serious, man !" If they sell 310,000 copies of this game at �100 a shot, I will do more than show my arse in a shop window.

"redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah9hrf$r8a2b$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > "Andi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I read somewhere that written complaints against TV programs are > > multiplied by 10,000 or so to get a feel for how the real public feel > > (ie those who couldn't be bothered to write in). So, with say 10 > > complaints they assume 100,000 people feel the same. > > > > On that basis Chris/Tony you have probably got 310,000 copies of RL > > already sold (I'm seeing 31 posts in this thread at the moment), > > that's somewhat more than the initial sell of GPL. It's probably worth > > getting it done. > > > > > "You cannot be serious, man !" > If they sell 310,000 copies of this game at �100 a shot, I will do more

than show my arse > in a shop window. > > How many would sell - that is what I wonder about. even if they sold like crazy, got rave reviews in here and on sim sites, I *still* would not buy until I saw addons, both third party and west bros, starting to be released left and right. Assuming, of course that it would be a "bare-bones" release. If it was a release with several cars, several tracks, multiplayer and AI, well that might be different. But the way they talk, that would be released later, and from what I have seen, I fear that I would be sitting there for years with one car, one track, an empty wallet, and a look of chagrin upon my face.

>"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote > Oh ye of little faith! /me walks around r.a.s. and recognise an old face passing near sight... "Oh hey, isn't he that Bruce guy from down under??" :) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote > Errr.... yeah, sorry 'bout that. It seemed kinda wicked and funny when I > wrote it but in hindsight was ill-advised. There are several zealots at my > door as I write. I repent! I think it's been widely accepted that the fine here in this newsgroup for any incident is an entire week of reclusion, with only Spirit of Speed 1937 to race with. Yeah I know it's a very hard punishment, but hey it's your fault don't forget!!! ;-) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"Mike Davison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah8huj$rfi$[email hidden]... > i would have thought the parsley went in before the cooking... ><trying not to be SO obvious in demonstrating cooking knowledge> ahem . . . parsley is primarily a garnish that is decoratively placed on top of an already cooked meal . . . ahem. <quickly jumps on the weight machine and does a few bicep curls to reinforce masculinity> :0) -- Joe Marques

Seems a little harsh ;) Could it not be commuted to a day with GP4 - that's only a slight let-off :) "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9SYZ8.9799$[email hidden]... > >"Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Errr.... yeah, sorry 'bout that. It seemed kinda wicked and funny when I > > wrote it but in hindsight was ill-advised. There are several zealots atmy > > door as I write. I repent! > > > I think it's been widely accepted that the fine here in this newsgroup for > any incident is an entire week of reclusion, with only Spirit of Speed1937

Quoted text (15 lines)

> to race with. Yeah I know it's a very hard punishment, but hey it's your > fault don't forget!!! ;-) > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

"Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > Whats wrong with splitting the cost of a title to pay a part for beta > testing, then a part to upgrade to release edition? > > Frankly - is the inverse of a con imho. > > Doug >

Also you have to pay a monthly subscription to "beta test" Warbirds. That seems to be doing quite well, and someone I know who is "into" WW2 flight sims rates Warbirds above IL2. Some "beta testing" can be fun, it can be more or less a commercial release, but without the legal comeback on the company if someone can't calibrate a Quickshot joystick for the game *right there and then*. Good on 'em, I say. If RL goes to pay-beta, I'll sign up and pay. If it gets as far as retail, I'll probably buy it. cheers John

"jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in

Quoted text (9 lines)

> How many would sell - that is what I wonder about. even if they sold > like crazy, got rave reviews in here and on sim sites, I *still* would > not buy until I saw addons, both third party and west bros, starting > to be released left and right. Assuming, of course that it would be a > "bare-bones" release. If it was a release with several cars, several > tracks, multiplayer and AI, well that might be different. But the way > they talk, that would be released later, and from what I have seen, I > fear that I would be sitting there for years with one car, one track, > an empty wallet, and a look of chagrin upon my face.

If you'd read the FAQ on the west racing website, you'd know that the wests do not intend on releasing "one car and one track" as the retail product. That is just chinese whispers spread on usenet and web forums. Now I'm not saying this means that the retail will have X number of cars, and Y number of tracks, but from the FAQ, the *intentions* of the west brothers are: 1) the *BETA* will have one car and one track. 2) the retail product will have more than one car, and more than one track. which cars and tracks specifically, depends on licensing. 3) Multiplayer is intended for the initial release 4) AIs to race against are intended for the initial release. That's what I understand from the FAQ on the site. I don't have a crystal ball, so I can't say 100% the above will happen, but all the negative talk specifically concerning the retail product having only one car and one track, has *got to stop* because that is not the intention of the west brothers. For your (hypothetical) $150, they want to give you a bunch of cars, a bunch of tracks, a way of playing online, and a bunch of computer people to race against. I'd also guess that there's at least a slack handful of cars and tracks which would be perfectly enjoyable to drive (on) that require no fees for licensing, assuming the big players want too much money. that's the intentions, let's hope the reality matches them. cheers John

Andre Warringa wrote:

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:25:30 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Oh ye of little faith! > > > >BK > > Whoa, you're still alive :)

At his age, that's an accomplishment in itself Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Olav Malmin wrote: > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> writes: > > > Oh ye of little faith! > > Wow, Bruce! The almighty sarcastic one from down under. welcome back :) No kidding, we better start spell checking our posts from now on, not to mention the grammar Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

> It seems to me that the West bros really enjoy all the hype both pro& > cons. Do you have ANY idea how harsh it is to pour your life's work into a project - and when you go public with it - half the community calls you a fucking idiot and a lying bastard? Do you have ANY idea how DESPERATE these guys are to get this project into fruition Do you have ANY idea how much SHIT they went thru with Empire? Do you have ANY clue WHATSOEVER on ANY of the details? Doug

"Goy Larsen" wrote... > > <snip> > No kidding, we better start spell checking our posts from > now on, not to mention the grammar Bollocks to that. Jan.<g> =--- "It's for the fun." - Gilles Panizzi

"Doug Ellison" wrote...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > <snip> > Do you have ANY idea how harsh it is to pour your life's > work into a project - and when you go public with it - > half the community calls you a fucking idiot and a lying > bastard? > > Do you have ANY idea how DESPERATE these guys are to get > this project into fruition > > Do you have ANY idea how much SHIT they went thru with > Empire? > > Do you have ANY clue WHATSOEVER on ANY of the details?

It would appear to me the evidence points in the direction of these questions being rethoric, Doug. Yes, it's exasperating to read this kind of stuff, but it's absolutely no use whatsoever getting frazzled over it. I let a couple replies slip earlier, which I don't regret, but it's a lot less energy consuming to just let the novelty of slagging off the West's effort wear off. Take note of the messages and save your energy for the massive "HAH!"-post to come.<g> Jan. =--- "It's for the fun." - Gilles Panizzi

> Yes, it's exasperating to read this kind of stuff, but it's absolutely no > use whatsoever getting frazzled over it. I let a couple replies slip > earlier, which I don't regret, but it's a lot less energy consuming tojust > let the novelty of slagging off the West's effort wear off. Take note ofthe > messages and save your energy for the massive "HAH!"-post to come.<g> I just think that the community as a whole should show a little respect for the guys prepared to bank EVERYTHING on what we've been asking for for years. When they get ridiculed for it - it drives me bloody mad DOug

I see they have a newer one posted. Ahh. Thank you. Much more info in this one. I would like to amend my original post to read as follows: If good, I buy. If no good, I no buy. (Last line not intended to be negative) "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in > > > How many would sell - that is what I wonder about. even if they sold > > like crazy, got rave reviews in here and on sim sites, I *still* would > > not buy until I saw addons, both third party and west bros, starting > > to be released left and right. Assuming, of course that it would be a > > "bare-bones" release. If it was a release with several cars, several > > tracks, multiplayer and AI, well that might be different. But the way > > they talk, that would be released later, and from what I have seen, I > > fear that I would be sitting there for years with one car, one track, > > an empty wallet, and a look of chagrin upon my face. > > If you'd read the FAQ on the west racing website, you'd know that the

wests > do not intend on releasing "one car and one track" as the retail product. > That is just chinese whispers spread on usenet and web forums. Now I'mnot > saying this means that the retail will have X number of cars, and Y number > of tracks, but from the FAQ, the *intentions* of the west brothers are: > > 1) the *BETA* will have one car and one track. > 2) the retail product will have more than one car, and more than onetrack.

Quoted text (12 lines)

> which cars and tracks specifically, depends on licensing. > 3) Multiplayer is intended for the initial release > 4) AIs to race against are intended for the initial release. > > That's what I understand from the FAQ on the site. I don't have a crystal > ball, so I can't say 100% the above will happen, but all the negative talk > specifically concerning the retail product having only one car and one > track, has *got to stop* because that is not the intention of the west > brothers. > > For your (hypothetical) $150, they want to give you a bunch of cars, a > bunch of tracks, a way of playing online, and a bunch of computer people

to > race against. I'd also guess that there's at least a slack handful ofcars > and tracks which would be perfectly enjoyable to drive (on) that requireno

Quoted text (7 lines)

> fees for licensing, assuming the big players want too much money. > > that's the intentions, let's hope the reality matches them. > > cheers > John >

On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:15:01 GMT, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote: >"Goy Larsen" wrote... >> > <snip> >> No kidding, we better start spell checking our posts from >> now on, not to mention the grammar > >Bollocks to that. There's no verb in that sentence! Jason

"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> Andre Warringa wrote: > > > > On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:25:30 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Oh ye of little faith! > > > > > >BK > > > > Whoa, you're still alive :) > > At his age, that's an accomplishment in itself >

Now THAT'S funny :-))))

"jason moyer" wrote... > >Bollocks to that. > > There's no verb in that sentence! I know.... I was hoping to catch Bruce though.<g> On 2nd thought, the sly old fox probably wouldn't have fallen for it. Jan. =--- "It's for the fun." - Gilles Panizzi

"Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Vd%Z8.160$SA3.11451@wards...

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > > It seems to me that the West bros really enjoy all the hype both pro > & > > cons. > > Do you have ANY idea how harsh it is to pour your life's work into a > project - and when you go public with it - half the community calls you a > fucking idiot and a lying bastard? > > Do you have ANY idea how DESPERATE these guys are to get this project into > fruition > > Do you have ANY idea how much SHIT they went thru with Empire? > > Do you have ANY clue WHATSOEVER on ANY of the details? >

Life's tough and if these guy's are throwing every last penny they have into this project, and presumably WSC before it's collapse, then I would venture that they must be pretty bloody wealthy individuals who can easily afford this kind of personal extravagance. I'd love to know where you are getting your info from. You must have some vested interest above and beyond everyone else to get SO uptight and defensive of this pie in the sky project. Do you think the West's will give up on this if a few of us slag them off ? Bearing in mind the incredible level of commitment you seem to think they have . I wouldn't think so. If anything it should just make them more determined to prove everyone of their detractors wrong . Would it matter if we knew how desperate they were ? Would it matter if we knew how much shit they went through with Empire ? Do we have a clue on any of the details ? No. And I really can't see why it would be relevant. The West's have decided to make their ultimate driving simulator, and that's great. Why should I be suffering their misfortunes as well ?

> Life's tough and if these guy's are throwing every last penny they haveinto this > project, and presumably WSC before it's collapse, then I would venturethat they must be > pretty bloody wealthy individuals who can easily afford this kind ofpersonal > extravagance. You'd presume wrong. VERY wrong. > I'd love to know where you are getting your info from. I chat to Chris and Tony regularly. I also spoke to them at great length at Goodwood. When did you last chat to them. Doug

Colin Harris wrote:

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > At his age, that's an accomplishment in itself > > > > Now THAT'S funny :-))))

Hiya Colin :-), so how's the missus doing these days, keeping you on a leesh ? :-) Or is that leash.....must be careful with these things now, if we're not careful we'll have Bart Brown back in here too before long and the dynamic duo will be reunited in their quest for better spelling and grammar Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Who is the 'good looking' one in the Goodwood photos...? :) The same Doug...? Andy

Doug, You do seem to be missing the point. I really don't care whether or not the Wests have the capital to complete RL. It's their decision to try and bring RL to completion. It's not our responsibility nor obligation to fund them, either now or later by paying to be a beta tester, or for the demo. When the time comes and core retail version of RL is ready, then I will decide after testing the demo, whether or not I wish to purchase RL. One would think that both the Wests must have families to support, bills to pay, etc. Just how are they doing that if they're working on RL 12 hours per day? And to my way of thinking these are very important questions that no one asks and the Wests have side stepped. You talk to the Wests all the time, so perhaps you can shed some light on these questions. And lastly, if anyone should lighten up, it's you. You seem to be the self appointed defender of th RL and the Wests. They're big boys and should be fully capable of defending themselves. Joel Willstein -- "If you can leave black marks on a straight from the time you exit a corner till the time you brake for the next turn , then you have enough horsepower." Mark Donohue "Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DS0_8.178$SA3.14793@wards... > > > Life's tough and if these guy's are throwing every last penny they have > into this > > project, and presumably WSC before it's collapse, then I would venture > that they must be > > pretty bloody wealthy individuals who can easily afford this kind of > personal > > extravagance. > > You'd presume wrong. VERY wrong. > > > > I'd love to know where you are getting your info from. > > I chat to Chris and Tony regularly. I also spoke to them at great length at > Goodwood. > > When did you last chat to them. > > Doug > >

Quoted text (7 lines)

>"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote > "Goy Larsen" wrote... > > > <snip> > > No kidding, we better start spell checking our posts from > > now on, not to mention the grammar > > Bollocks to that.

To that what? ;-) (hey I'm at fault also) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

I'll respect them when I have it on my harddrive..... sudesh "Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4F%Z8.167$SA3.11731@wards... > > > Yes, it's exasperating to read this kind of stuff, but it's absolutelyno

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > use whatsoever getting frazzled over it. I let a couple replies slip > > earlier, which I don't regret, but it's a lot less energy consuming to > just > > let the novelty of slagging off the West's effort wear off. Take note of > the > > messages and save your energy for the massive "HAH!"-post to come.<g> > > I just think that the community as a whole should show a little respect

for

Quoted text (8 lines)

> the guys prepared to bank EVERYTHING on what we've been asking for for > years. > > When they get ridiculed for it - it drives me bloody mad > > DOug > >

"Andrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aha71l$4o1$[email hidden]... > Who is the 'good looking' one in the Goodwood photos...? :) > > The same Doug...? >LMFAO That pic is iirc, Chris on the Left, Rick Osborn in the middle ( I gave him a lift down from leicester) Tony, then Juhka on the right. Was a bloody good day to be honest. Doug

Quoted text (18 lines)

> > Life's tough and if these guy's are throwing every last penny they have > into this > > project, and presumably WSC before it's collapse, then I would venture > that they must be > > pretty bloody wealthy individuals who can easily afford this kind of > personal > > extravagance. > > You'd presume wrong. VERY wrong. > > > > I'd love to know where you are getting your info from. > > I chat to Chris and Tony regularly. I also spoke to them at great length at > Goodwood. > > When did you last chat to them. >

So, these guy's spend the better part of 4 years personally funding their dream and they are not well off ? Sorry, I just don't believe that. And I don't see any comments by yourself to prove otherwise except the, more than occasional, name dropping. I once had a nice chat to Sir Bobby Charlton. He told me........................blah blah blah etc.

Doug , You better lighten and take a step back. Do you actually read what you type, let alone believe it? If the Wests are that desperate to bring their lifes work to fruition, and their lifes work is a open ended racing sim, then both of them really need to get a life. A real life. You gotta be kidding with all of this. This is a hobby for me as well as 99% of the sim community. Their troubles with Empire stems from their inability to meet whatever goals they agreed to via a legal binding contract . Empire then paid them either as employees or as independant contractors. When the powers to be at Empire had more then enough of the delays and came to the realization that in all likely hood WSC would never be finished, they were terminated for breach of contract. And at that point Empire owned the code and or anything else related to WSC that was done for Empire. Neither you nor the Wests who do read this newsgroup have answered my questions: 1- Do they have families to support? Or at the least do they have to support themselves? 2- If they spend nearly all of their waking hours working on RL, how to they earn enough money to live on, in light of the fact that you have mentioned that neither West is well off financially? Joel Willstein -- "If you can leave black marks on a straight from the time you exit a corner till the time you brake for the next turn , then you have enough horsepower." Mark Donohue "Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Vd%Z8.160$SA3.11451@wards... > > > It seems to me that the West bros really enjoy all the hype both pro > & > > cons. > > Do you have ANY idea how harsh it is to pour your life's work into a > project - and when you go public with it - half the community calls you a > fucking idiot and a lying bastard? > > Do you have ANY idea how DESPERATE these guys are to get this project into > fruition > > Do you have ANY idea how much SHIT they went thru with Empire? > > Do you have ANY clue WHATSOEVER on ANY of the details? > > Doug > >

Nice theory, but it likely doesn't work in reverse. ;0) Yes, there is substantial research that demonstrates only 1 out of X customers takes the time to complain (x being 10,000 in your TV example, X is also 100 in some service businesses). This scarcity is based on fear of confrontation, lack of interest, etc. Unfortunately, it probably doesn't work in the reverse, i.e., only 1 in 10,000 interested customers write about their interest. Why would so many people hesitate to speak of an intent to purchase? There's little downside to such an action (except here where RL fans are foolish zealots and RL detractors are demons). ;0) -- Joe Marques "Andi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I read somewhere that written complaints against TV programs are > multiplied by 10,000 or so to get a feel for how the real public feel > (ie those who couldn't be bothered to write in). So, with say 10 > complaints they assume 100,000 people feel the same. > > On that basis Chris/Tony you have probably got 310,000 copies of RL > already sold (I'm seeing 31 posts in this thread at the moment), > that's somewhat more than the initial sell of GPL. It's probably worth > getting it done. > > My original comment was really around the excessive (IMHO) attention > to the pretty bits of RL. Get the game together and then we'll see how > we should buy it. > > Best wishes for the success of RL it sounds really good. Can't wait, > no, really. > > Andi. > > > Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > > On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:25:30 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Oh ye of little faith! > > > > > >BK > > > > Whoa, you're still alive :) > > > > Andre

It's all right guys racing Legends will be released in Q4 2002 (http://www.sportplanet.com/hg/releasedates.php) and it will be a wordwide release, so noone can complain about being left out. Andi. "Andi Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah704g$184$[email hidden]... > There is an awful lot of stuff on the West bros web pages about Racing > Legends including details of how the products will be wrapped! Some very > nice pictures of cars a year or so (I guess ) after GPL but that doesn'tdo > anything for the game, sorry, simulation. Is this another bundle of hype > like WSC, surely they are playing with us aren't they? Why do I need toknow > now what the add-on packs will look like, surely we want a game(simulation) > not a bunch of pretty boxes. Mind you theres a lot of vapour ware thatwill > fit in those boxes! > > Andi. > > >

..... ....somebody smell.... ? ...I don't know.... ...kinda like 'old person' smell ..... cigar farts or something... -- "Boy! You've got to have really big attachments to try a pass there... and make it." - David Hobbs mark "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Oh ye of little faith! > > BK > > "Andi Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ah704g$184$[email hidden]... > >...............Mind you theres a lot of vapour ware that will > > fit in those boxes! > >

OMG Rationale thought "db" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:voJZ8.201014$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > "Phil Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ah721o$q5viv$[email hidden]... > > "Andi Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:ah704g$184$[email hidden]... > > > There is an awful lot of stuff on the West bros web pages about Racing > > > Legends including details of how the products will be wrapped! Some

very > > > nice pictures of cars a year or so (I guess ) after GPL but thatdoesn't > > do > > > anything for the game, sorry, simulation. Is this another bundle ofhype > > > like WSC, surely they are playing with us aren't they? Why do I needto

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > know > > > now what the add-on packs will look like, surely we want a game > > (simulation) > > > not a bunch of pretty boxes. Mind you theres a lot of vapour ware that > > will > > > fit in those boxes! > > > > > > Andi. > > > > > > > > > I met and spoke to both Chris and Tony at Goodwood. I was convinced that > > they are completely genuine. After all what would be the point of

spending > a > > lot of their own money to produce some very smart flyers and evensmarter > > information packs on vapour ware. > > > > Having spoken to them and read through both the flyer and the info pack, > I'm > > sure they are ommitted to the project and genuine fans of sim racing.They > > are also investing a huge amount of their own time (12-14 hours a day) > > coding RL with no income at the moment. Once again, why would they dothis > > if they weren't going to release something? > > > > I see RL as the sim racing equivalent of X-Plane, as do Chris and Tony.In > > case you aren't familiar with X-Plane, it is an advanced flight sim that > can > > model any aircraft that has been produced by one programmer. It has ahuge

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > following and is rated by a lot of people as being better than the MS > Flight > > Sim line. This is a proven business model that can work. We just need to > > have a bit more patience. > > > > Phil, I don't mean single you out, but in one of your other posts you said > one of the Wests told you that, "RL was nowhere near the beta stage." > Whatever their point, they indeed seem to be spending a lot of money on > Vaporware ;). > > I don't doubt their integrity or their intentions, but I am quite

skeptical > that they can even come close to what they have promoted on their web site > in any sort of timely fashion ...and some of the features that people are > dreaming about sound like pipe dreams to me. This thing *is* intended torun > on PCs, correct? > > People on both sides of the issue are jumping way ahead of the startinggun

Quoted text (15 lines)

> here. It seems to me, that if they are that far away from a beta, then I > wouldn't doubt that the "Core" could be a full year or more away. Not to > mention all of the free upgrades to include all of the standard features > included in most games. I wouldn't be surprised if we are still waiting > after 3 or more years for the "Standard Features" to be finalized (bug > free), much less any of the Premium add-ons. Now, this isn't intended as a > slam on the West's abilities or anything, rather just the way that I am > approaching this whole thing. As you can tell, I'm not getting overly > excited just yet, heheh. I don't doubt that they will eventually release > *something*, but when and exactly what it entails is another story all > together... > > Although I don't really know anything about the Wests. What previous games > did they code? Might I have heard of any of their previous projects? What > company were they with before their Empire deal? I wasn't around sim

racing > when the WSC whirlwind landed and evaporated, so maybe someone out therecan > fill me in. > > I keep hearing about the X-Plane comparison. I don't know much about it.But > just on the surface, it appears to me that an advanced auto sim issomewhat

Quoted text (7 lines)

> more complicated than a flight sim. I mean, you have the physics, > aerodynamics, weather, etc., same as a flight sim, but then you also have > complex suspensions and most importantly, the tire model. Then add in > multiple surfaces and everything else mentioned on their site and I'm > thinking it's going to be one ambitions project. Correct me if I'm wrong, > but hasn't X-Plane been in development for years? Racing Legends may > eventually end up being the "End All, Be All" of racing sims, but I won't

be > surprised if doesn't take a while to get there with some misfires alongthe > way. > > The thing that concerns me is the way that they are starting out. Theyseem > to be trying to raise Venture Capital from their customers on the frontend

Quoted text (7 lines)

> with all the Fliers, Info Packs, selling the beta and proposing full price > for a "Core" product with free upgrades available at some point in the > future. I think that they are going to limit their market share > significantly with this approach. They seem to be applying the full-blown > Schmooze Deal like it's some sort of corporate sales pitch, but then are > developing it on a shoestring. I think a lot of people are seeing the > inconsistencies and it isn't garnering a lot of confidence with the

"Hopeful

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Skeptics." I think it would have been much better if they would have come > clean with the community and said, "Look people, the deal with Empire went > bad and WSC is no more. What we have now is the same modular, open-ended, > high-realism Racing Sim Concept, but we are going to have to start this > thing off small. I hope everyone who is interested will gather and support > this effort as we really believe this could end up being something really > special." The way they are doing it now appears to be nothing but Smoke

and > Mirrors to many. > > If they then said, "We are very short of funds at the moment, so what weare > going to do is sell a "preview" version to those who want to support the > development of this project. The fee will be counted towards the price of > the full sim when it is released," I think it would have gained a lot more > support throughout community. Not that it doesn't have a lot already, butit > could be better. > > Personally, I'm not much interested in paying any significant amount for a > beta unless it is a true beta (full featured with only bug squishing to be > done), and even then, I wouldn't take the hard-core professional > exterminator approach, I'd just mostly be playing around like everyoneelse,

Quoted text (8 lines)

> heheh. What I would like to see would be an installment payment method to > match the "Evolution" of the game. I mean, charge maybe $20 for the "beta" > and then charge $10-$20 for each upgrade all the way through v1.00. I'd > probably be willing to spend $200 or so over a couple to three years with > this method, whereas I'm rather unlikely to pony up $150 or so for only a > "Core" with free upgrades to come at some "future date". Maybe they could > employ both methods. Have an upfront fee of $150 (or whatever) that the > "Faithful" could buy and get all the standard upgrades for free while

those > on the installment plan would have to spend a total of $200 over theentire > development period. (The overall price of the installments would have tobe

Quoted text (13 lines)

> set beforehand so people would know what to expect.) The people paying > installments would have the confidence that they will only be paying for > what they know they want and can get out at any time, while those who pay > upfront get a break for essentially loaning the West's a little Venture > Capital. > > But, I'm sure they've already though of these things... > > > Dave Boyle > > >

Wayne Bradley wrote: > > OMG Rationale thought Even more amazing considering who was doing the thinking Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--