rec.autos.simulators

You and JP are sorely getting facts and timelines mixed up.

Where the hell do you get that? Saddam was a total madman, albeit a
madman bought and paid for by the US. I agree that the US was wrong -
wrong to put his party in power in the first place, and wrong to wage an
illegal war killing millions of innocent Iraqis.

But you'll never find me saying Saddam was "right". Right about....what?

The sanctions were from Resolution 661 of August 1990. Why are people
trying to equate this with supposed oil-for-food? Kofi Annan personally
criticised the US for this at the time.

By "own free hands" you mean that the US has provided another leader for
them, as happened last time. You could be right, but surely you can see
why they wouldn't exactly be jumping for joy.

Sorry Mitch, but please don't try to shoehorn me into some convenient
little labelled box. You will never hear me say I hate the US. Bush,
well, different matter, but I'm not close enough to see what he does
locally. My concern is with international law, and with the Iraqi
people, and my truck is as much with my own country as with yours. The
only country in this I have some respect for is the French, but you guys
were spun such lies and half-truths about the French that I don't even
want to go there :-)

 > Maybe its a slanderous

I think the same ;-)

We obviously have very different viewpoints, but I do very much
appreciate that you know the difference between an argument and a
debate! It seems a rare gift on this issue!

Is there a point at which a halt should be called, or does the old
"Reaganomics" apply, of what's good for the money markets is good for
the country?

If we stoop to that you can start thanking us Scots for your roads, your
TVs and your telephones.... ;-)

Am I to understand *you* do dispute these, and are about to provide
evidence of which the UN and your government are unaware?

No-one is arguing that the US has done good things, although they've
done more than their fair share of bad things also. The point is that in
the specific case you cited, giving aid to other countries, the US falls
well short of the standards agreed to by the UN.

That was the only assertion I made, backed up with the facts deemed so
necessary.

In an television interview he stated "I had been instructed to implement
a policy that satisfies the definition of genocide, a deliberate policy
that has effectively killed well over a million individuals, children
and ***s. What is clear is that the Security Council is now out of
control, for its actions here undermine its own Charter, and the
Declaration of Human Rights and the Geneva Convention. History will
slaughter those responsible"

Please note, the security council to which he refers comprises only five
permanent members, US, UK, China, France and Russia. The US and the UK
were the only ones to veto supplies under the sanctions, and were the
members to which Halliday refers.

I bet you agree with the irony of *** innocents in orange jumpsuits
also.

Mitch

from Abu Ghraib and thought that was the in

When did I ever say that?

Its the attacks I have an issue with not rational discussion.

discussion, but I found this 'If you're not with

Neither of us is right or wrong in regards to Iraq at this point in time.  I
didnt expect it to be 2 years ago when the War started either.  Things are
looking better for freedom daily though and thats all we can hope for and
which was our original intent in Iraq, not WMD or Oil as your party likes to
think.

Mitch

the US has done good things, although they've

Hans von Spooneck, who replaced Denis

     Proof  (link, i.e.) showing your claim about the US/UK here ?  Exactly
what kind of supplies are you referring too ?  I've posted some showing
otherwise.

That's just plain delusional. Iraq is a mess because of, A.)the
incompetence of the Bush administration, B.)the deceit of the Bush
administration, C.) both incompetence and deceit of the Bush
administration. Anyway you look at it the people who created the problem
are unlikely to be the ones to fix it.

Marty

"Wasn't it Americans tied in with the oil/food/sanctions genocide?

   Proof ?

   Explain how so ?  I've posted facts.  You're still posting non-confirmed
quotes, theories, and opinions.  So, explain exactly how so.

   You answer my questions first, since you've been dodging them, and we'll
go from there.

p.s.  But for *starters*, the US/UK didn't stop food/medicine, as in this
line from your analogy.
"Now let's say I veto that (equivalent to US and UK) and will not allow even
food and medicine to you. "

Btw, what's that again about how you weren't blaming the US ?

  Ok, answered yours.  Once again, how about mine, for who knows how many
times I've posted it; the $ for oil/food were present.  Yet, much of it was
pocketed by UN, European officials, and SH and his gang.  Follow along
now...........that means all those $ that were supposed to buy food/medicine
didn't get to do so.............still with me ?.

  So, since there was all this money wasted instead of used as it was
supposed to have been, how is it the US's fault ?

  Or are you going to keep conviently ignoring this fact ?

  Simple.  By living up to my end of the agreement.  The one that I forced
upon myself.

  Exactly.  Blamed Iraq.  I.e., their govt.  Fairly common sense to
understand that.  Or, when you incorrectly say the US didn't allow
food/medicine, you mean the US people ?

  Using your "reasoning" here, you would be, eh ?

  Ah, I see.  Since you can't ignore the fact that all the sanctions were UN
sanctions, now you twist it so that they "don't really count" if you will,
because in your tin-beenied head, the US/UK demanded them.

  First, proof of this latest incorrect allegation ?

  Second, they were Security Council sanctions.  Do some research on that
body, what countries are on it, and how it's vetoes/passing work.  Hint:  It
takes more than the US/UK to pass/veto a sanction via this council.

  Ah, the moonbat comes out in full force.  Ok, here's a very small tip of
the iceberg start for you.  Btw, you conviently left out the UN and European
officials that took $ too.

  Anyway, here you go.  Since you passed (your Murdoch comment was
interesting...ignored the CNN links, eh ?) over my earlier links to CNN and
FOX, I've included others this time too.

http://www.racesimcentral.net/,2933,132682,00.html

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

(SH part toward the end here)

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

  Or maybe one closer to home.

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

  I had some NBC links too, but for some reason, the text was fubared upon
page loading.  nbcnews.com if you're interested.

  Not allowed ?  Proof ?

   Proof ?

  Then you should have no difficulty copying/pasting it.  I haven't seen it.

*I* have yet to prove it ?  You're the one who first claimed the US blocked
it.   Proving things is on your end.  Which you haven't yet btw.  So put up
already.  This thread has gone on long enough, without your showing any
proof at all of your myriad moonbat claims.

allegations.

  Missed those earlier links, eh ?  In this post and earlier.  You're in a
serious state of delusion old boy.  Denying facts, interesting.

  So, I've backed up my statements with facts, links, etc.  Even though
you're the one who starting making accusations, and while having been
repeatedly asked to prove them, have not, how about trying now ?  So far,
all you've done is dodge every question for proof, while trying to change
subjects in each post.  But I'm not surprised; the moonbat crowd always gets
nervous when facts are called for.

  Put up or shut up.  Simple concept really.

You bet!

Bye-bye? No stomach for a dialog with people who don't agree with you?

Marty

 > moulding their manifesto around whatever they think
 > will get us to vote for them

Messy stuff politics. They say we get what we deserve, and if
focus-groups continue to shape policy that's certainly what we'll
continue to get. Personally I like my politicians to have their own
ideas rather than those they copied out of The Sun. I think that's why
Brown would make a difference if the New Labour spin machine lets him.
Either way, at the moment the only thing that matters is getting a party
in power without a huge, distorting majority.

While we're on the subject, there was some interesting comment on R4 the
other day that said without Cherie, Blair might have gravitated towards
the Conservative party rather than Labour. That might explain a lot.

 > How are you these days anyway Andrew?

You mean, apart from terminally depressed at the state of world
leadership, the future for the environment, and the fact I still prefer
GPL to anything more recent (except maybe rFactor)? Fine John! :-)

 > Still staying in that amazingly quaint village?

<peers out of the window at the M25 in the near distance>. Er, no. Not
sure I ever did :-)

Nice to see you still*** around the place. Not sure I can recommend
getting involved in the political stuff though. It's really bad for any
optimism you might have lurking at the back or your head.

Andrew McP