rec.autos.simulators

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

B. Hilt

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

by B. Hilt » Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:13:39


Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar
Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!
NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3

The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from
racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they
will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL.  
The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the
only thing worth a ***to play.

Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4
Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to
what they call "wrecking".

here's their rules:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR? Racing 4
Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking*

*Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider
reporting an incident of intentional wrecking.

In an effort to give the NASCAR? Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue
to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if
all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will
need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT
the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled
drivers, or plain old "racing incidents".

Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing
these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not
incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue
this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is
legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we
will no longer accept reports from that individual.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to
race their game online was not good business practice and bad
morally).
So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY
LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone.
Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature...
where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and
LPI (laps per incident).  My ratings were VERY high for both... which
that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker.

Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the
emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay
from which they banned me from.

As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS
TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons
#1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps
and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the
field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every
car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact.
#2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!!

here's what they call me a wrecker from:
As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin
in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me
(since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the
racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove
to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass
me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the
leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them
pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the
same area trying to get out of the way of each other.
So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left
rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him
you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his
car!!!

Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage
(haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a
few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had
to complete a few more laps to help my score.  So I kept going... and
continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over
again.  Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on
turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when
coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the
wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the
frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with
another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured.
Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as
before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was
out to wreck him intentionally.

With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to
go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to
get... but they don't see it that way I guess.

Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a
new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion.   See, my thinking
is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the
best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away
from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought
it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once
in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing
online, for good.

I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to
the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were
still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up.  They
responded again rudely against that.

I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of
you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it.  I have no problem
showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay,
although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK.

I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns
me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy
may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case.

Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in
this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive
about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a
pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new
computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb
ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel
and pedals from thrustmaster.  Bascially I would not have had to buy a
new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much...
but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying.  :(

I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days,
purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up
through Nascar 4.  Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar
game just to race online.

If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the
never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email

Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general?

thanks for your time!

BH
Dodgefan!

redTe

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

by redTe » Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:34:30



> Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar
> Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3

> The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from
> racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they
> will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL.
> The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the
> only thing worth a ***to play.

Non-contact Nascar Racing 4. That's an interesting concept.
I sympathize mate. Not everyone excels at Nascar 4 to the point of being
able to race entirely without accidents happening. Papyrus seem to be of the
view that if you ain't perfect you can't play. Online racing is a tricky
enough prospect for lots of people without strict, uncompromising rules that
punish drivers who may have "wrecked" someone un-intentionally. Sometimes
there are outside technical issues beyond your control that effects the way
you car is behaving. We've all seen that, and possibly had it happen to us
at some time. It wouldn't be very nice to get banned from playing your
favourite game online for that, would it ?

*This does not apply to the morons who go out deliberately to make arses of
themselves and ruin a fun game for everyone else.* Although a "special
needs" could be created for them !

Carol Bekke

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

by Carol Bekke » Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:35:19

Have you checked the license etc that came with the product, if there is no
mention about their rights to stop you using online mode of play, then
surely it is ilegal to stop a main part of the functionality of a product
which you payed for?



> Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar
> Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3

> The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from
> racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they
> will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL.
> The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the
> only thing worth a ***to play.

> Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4
> Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to
> what they call "wrecking".

> here's their rules:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR? Racing 4
> Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking*

> *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider
> reporting an incident of intentional wrecking.

> In an effort to give the NASCAR? Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue
> to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if
> all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will
> need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT
> the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled
> drivers, or plain old "racing incidents".

> Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing
> these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not
> incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue
> this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is
> legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we
> will no longer accept reports from that individual.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to
> race their game online was not good business practice and bad
> morally).
> So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY
> LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone.
> Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature...
> where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and
> LPI (laps per incident).  My ratings were VERY high for both... which
> that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker.

> Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the
> emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay
> from which they banned me from.

> As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS
> TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons
> #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps
> and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the
> field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every
> car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact.
> #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!!

> here's what they call me a wrecker from:
> As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin
> in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me
> (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the
> racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove
> to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass
> me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the
> leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them
> pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the
> same area trying to get out of the way of each other.
> So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left
> rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him
> you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his
> car!!!

> Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage
> (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a
> few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had
> to complete a few more laps to help my score.  So I kept going... and
> continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over
> again.  Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on
> turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when
> coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the
> wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the
> frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with
> another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured.
> Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as
> before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was
> out to wreck him intentionally.

> With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to
> go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to
> get... but they don't see it that way I guess.

> Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a
> new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion.   See, my thinking
> is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the
> best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away
> from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought
> it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once
> in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing
> online, for good.

> I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to
> the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were
> still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up.  They
> responded again rudely against that.

> I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of
> you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it.  I have no problem
> showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay,
> although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK.

> I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns
> me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy
> may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case.

> Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in
> this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive
> about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a
> pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new
> computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb
> ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel
> and pedals from thrustmaster.  Bascially I would not have had to buy a
> new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much...
> but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying.  :(

> I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days,
> purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up
> through Nascar 4.  Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar
> game just to race online.

> If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the
> never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email

> Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general?

> thanks for your time!

> BH
> Dodgefan!

Darrin Steven

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

by Darrin Steven » Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:57:16

Why not park it when your severely damaged?  Like it or not you being out
there in the way caused others to get wrecked, looks like on more than one
occasion.  Sounds to me like your down playing your involvement in incidents
during that race.  Are you sure you weren't in the high line on the
backstretch when the leaders were trying to go low and you came right across
the track in front of them causing the wreck?  I think that is alittle
closer to the truth.

--

Darrin Stevens
www.Stevens-Racing.com
www.TeamECR.com
www.SimRaceCar.com
www.Thomas-SuperWheel.com



> Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar
> Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3

> The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from
> racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they
> will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL.
> The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the
> only thing worth a ***to play.

> Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4
> Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to
> what they call "wrecking".

> here's their rules:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR? Racing 4
> Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking*

> *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider
> reporting an incident of intentional wrecking.

> In an effort to give the NASCAR? Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue
> to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if
> all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will
> need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT
> the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled
> drivers, or plain old "racing incidents".

> Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing
> these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not
> incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue
> this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is
> legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we
> will no longer accept reports from that individual.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to
> race their game online was not good business practice and bad
> morally).
> So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY
> LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone.
> Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature...
> where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and
> LPI (laps per incident).  My ratings were VERY high for both... which
> that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker.

> Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the
> emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay
> from which they banned me from.

> As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS
> TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons
> #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps
> and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the
> field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every
> car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact.
> #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!!

> here's what they call me a wrecker from:
> As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin
> in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me
> (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the
> racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove
> to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass
> me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the
> leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them
> pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the
> same area trying to get out of the way of each other.
> So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left
> rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him
> you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his
> car!!!

> Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage
> (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a
> few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had
> to complete a few more laps to help my score.  So I kept going... and
> continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over
> again.  Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on
> turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when
> coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the
> wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the
> frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with
> another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured.
> Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as
> before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was
> out to wreck him intentionally.

> With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to
> go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to
> get... but they don't see it that way I guess.

> Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a
> new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion.   See, my thinking
> is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the
> best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away
> from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought
> it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once
> in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing
> online, for good.

> I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to
> the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were
> still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up.  They
> responded again rudely against that.

> I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of
> you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it.  I have no problem
> showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay,
> although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK.

> I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns
> me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy
> may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case.

> Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in
> this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive
> about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a
> pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new
> computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb
> ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel
> and pedals from thrustmaster.  Bascially I would not have had to buy a
> new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much...
> but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying.  :(

> I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days,
> purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up
> through Nascar 4.  Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar
> game just to race online.

> If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the
> never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email

> Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general?

> thanks for your time!

> BH
> Dodgefan!

John Simmon

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

by John Simmon » Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:22:23


Even if that were the case, bad judgement is still not the same as
intentionally wrecking.  Maybe he waited too long to move to the low
line, and as I recall his description of the front stretch incident,
that is a typical scenario of events when you make a mistake.  Without
seeing the replay, we can't make a valid call on it one way or the
other.

I have mixed feelings about the banning of wreckers like this.  Many
times, a person may just be having a bad racing day.  I have personally
never intentionally wrecked someone, but I have had days when I couldn't
drive the car in a straight line, even I was velcroed to the back-strech
wall at dega.  On those days, I have sometimes been accused of
intentional wrecking, but I just ignore the flamer and keep driving
because I know better.  

The original poster is in a league and he can't participate in those
league races if the server is reguistered on WON.  IMHO (and within the
context provided), that is an unfair restriction of use of the game.

I haven't raced online since the new policy went into effect because all
it takes is one person to get you on Papy's radar, and that's not
someplace I want to spend my time (as a driver).  I wonder how many
other people feel the same way.

--
=========================================================
Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity"
  http://www.paddedwall.org/john

DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends
  http://www.paddedwall.org/demons

DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development)
  http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2

Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting)
  http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast

If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown
above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame.
=========================================================

Mike Grand

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

by Mike Grand » Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:48:43

Unfortunate, but the main rule is "hold your line" whether it be high or
low. Papy can only go by what they have in the way of a replay.



Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar
Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!
NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3

The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from
racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they
will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL.
The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the
only thing worth a ***to play.

Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4
Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to
what they call "wrecking".

here's their rules:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR? Racing 4
Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking*

*Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider
reporting an incident of intentional wrecking.

In an effort to give the NASCAR? Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue
to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if
all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will
need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT
the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled
drivers, or plain old "racing incidents".

Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing
these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not
incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue
this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is
legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we
will no longer accept reports from that individual.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to
race their game online was not good business practice and bad
morally).
So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY
LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone.
Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature...
where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and
LPI (laps per incident).  My ratings were VERY high for both... which
that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker.

Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the
emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay
from which they banned me from.

As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS
TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons
#1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps
and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the
field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every
car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact.
#2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!!

here's what they call me a wrecker from:
As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin
in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me
(since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the
racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove
to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass
me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the
leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them
pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the
same area trying to get out of the way of each other.
So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left
rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him
you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his
car!!!

Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage
(haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a
few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had
to complete a few more laps to help my score.  So I kept going... and
continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over
again.  Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on
turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when
coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the
wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the
frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with
another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured.
Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as
before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was
out to wreck him intentionally.

With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to
go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to
get... but they don't see it that way I guess.

Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a
new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion.   See, my thinking
is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the
best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away
from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought
it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once
in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing
online, for good.

I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to
the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were
still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up.  They
responded again rudely against that.

I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of
you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it.  I have no problem
showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay,
although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK.

I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns
me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy
may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case.

Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in
this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive
about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a
pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new
computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb
ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel
and pedals from thrustmaster.  Bascially I would not have had to buy a
new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much...
but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying.  :(

I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days,
purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up
through Nascar 4.  Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar
game just to race online.

If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the
never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email

Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general?

thanks for your time!

BH
Dodgefan!

Mike Grand

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

by Mike Grand » Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:51:55

If you think about it, theres a damaged car high coming off turn 2 and the
leaders are coming up from behind. The lap car comes down across the track
in front of the leaders and wrecks them. What does that look like to you?

I'm not saying it is right, but they only have a replay to review and
someones complaint. It's unfortunate but if they are going to clean up their
service thats what needs to be done.




> Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar
> Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3

> The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from
> racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they
> will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL.
> The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the
> only thing worth a ***to play.

Non-contact Nascar Racing 4. That's an interesting concept.
I sympathize mate. Not everyone excels at Nascar 4 to the point of being
able to race entirely without accidents happening. Papyrus seem to be of the
view that if you ain't perfect you can't play. Online racing is a tricky
enough prospect for lots of people without strict, uncompromising rules that
punish drivers who may have "wrecked" someone un-intentionally. Sometimes
there are outside technical issues beyond your control that effects the way
you car is behaving. We've all seen that, and possibly had it happen to us
at some time. It wouldn't be very nice to get banned from playing your
favourite game online for that, would it ?

*This does not apply to the morons who go out deliberately to make arses of
themselves and ruin a fun game for everyone else.* Although a "special
needs" could be created for them !

Mike Grand

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

by Mike Grand » Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:56:31

As always John there is no perfect way to police something like this. There
should be some way to arbitrate a decision like this where the suspended
racer can appeal to a board(of fellow peers) that would review the
circumstances and listen to recommendations from other members of the league
the individual is in.

Mike Grandy
Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team
3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale



Even if that were the case, bad judgement is still not the same as
intentionally wrecking.  Maybe he waited too long to move to the low
line, and as I recall his description of the front stretch incident,
that is a typical scenario of events when you make a mistake.  Without
seeing the replay, we can't make a valid call on it one way or the
other.

I have mixed feelings about the banning of wreckers like this.  Many
times, a person may just be having a bad racing day.  I have personally
never intentionally wrecked someone, but I have had days when I couldn't
drive the car in a straight line, even I was velcroed to the back-strech
wall at dega.  On those days, I have sometimes been accused of
intentional wrecking, but I just ignore the flamer and keep driving
because I know better.

The original poster is in a league and he can't participate in those
league races if the server is reguistered on WON.  IMHO (and within the
context provided), that is an unfair restriction of use of the game.

I haven't raced online since the new policy went into effect because all
it takes is one person to get you on Papy's radar, and that's not
someplace I want to spend my time (as a driver).  I wonder how many
other people feel the same way.

--
=========================================================
Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity"
  http://www.paddedwall.org/john

DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends
  http://www.paddedwall.org/demons

DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development)
  http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2

Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting)
  http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast

If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown
above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame.
=========================================================

Vintoo

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

by Vintoo » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 00:00:56

NO! Papy is of the view that if you intentionally wreck others, you don't
get to play. If you are just a crappy driver you will not get banned.

Vintook





> > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar
> > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!
> > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3

> > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from
> > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they
> > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL.
> > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the
> > only thing worth a ***to play.

> Non-contact Nascar Racing 4. That's an interesting concept.
> I sympathize mate. Not everyone excels at Nascar 4 to the point of being
> able to race entirely without accidents happening. Papyrus seem to be of
the
> view that if you ain't perfect you can't play. Online racing is a tricky
> enough prospect for lots of people without strict, uncompromising rules
that
> punish drivers who may have "wrecked" someone un-intentionally. Sometimes
> there are outside technical issues beyond your control that effects the
way
> you car is behaving. We've all seen that, and possibly had it happen to us
> at some time. It wouldn't be very nice to get banned from playing your
> favourite game online for that, would it ?

> *This does not apply to the morons who go out deliberately to make arses
of
> themselves and ruin a fun game for everyone else.* Although a "special
> needs" could be created for them !

Vintoo

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

by Vintoo » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 00:01:59

HAHAHAH. GOOD. One less wrecker to have to deal with.

Vintook



> Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar
> Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3

> The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from
> racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they
> will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL.
> The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the
> only thing worth a ***to play.

> Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4
> Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to
> what they call "wrecking".

> here's their rules:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR? Racing 4
> Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking*

> *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider
> reporting an incident of intentional wrecking.

> In an effort to give the NASCAR? Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue
> to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if
> all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will
> need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT
> the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled
> drivers, or plain old "racing incidents".

> Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing
> these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not
> incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue
> this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is
> legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we
> will no longer accept reports from that individual.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to
> race their game online was not good business practice and bad
> morally).
> So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY
> LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone.
> Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature...
> where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and
> LPI (laps per incident).  My ratings were VERY high for both... which
> that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker.

> Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the
> emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay
> from which they banned me from.

> As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS
> TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons
> #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps
> and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the
> field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every
> car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact.
> #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!!

> here's what they call me a wrecker from:
> As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin
> in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me
> (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the
> racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove
> to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass
> me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the
> leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them
> pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the
> same area trying to get out of the way of each other.
> So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left
> rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him
> you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his
> car!!!

> Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage
> (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a
> few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had
> to complete a few more laps to help my score.  So I kept going... and
> continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over
> again.  Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on
> turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when
> coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the
> wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the
> frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with
> another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured.
> Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as
> before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was
> out to wreck him intentionally.

> With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to
> go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to
> get... but they don't see it that way I guess.

> Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a
> new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion.   See, my thinking
> is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the
> best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away
> from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought
> it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once
> in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing
> online, for good.

> I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to
> the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were
> still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up.  They
> responded again rudely against that.

> I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of
> you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it.  I have no problem
> showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay,
> although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK.

> I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns
> me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy
> may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case.

> Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in
> this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive
> about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a
> pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new
> computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb
> ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel
> and pedals from thrustmaster.  Bascially I would not have had to buy a
> new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much...
> but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying.  :(

> I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days,
> purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up
> through Nascar 4.  Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar
> game just to race online.

> If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the
> never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email

> Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general?

> thanks for your time!

> BH
> Dodgefan!

Ian

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

by Ian » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 00:19:10

The problem with parking it when damaged is the stupid ranking system.
Not sure of what the poster did or didn't do, but if it was a genuine
mistake rather than intentional wrecking he shouldn't (IMHO) be banned from
racing on Sierra.com.

--

Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>


Eddie Petti

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

by Eddie Petti » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:30:19


> The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from
> racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they
> will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL.  
> The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the
> only thing worth a ***to play.

> Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4
> Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to
> what they call "wrecking".
<clipped>
> Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in
> this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive
> about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a
> pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new
> computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb
> ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel
> and pedals from thrustmaster.  Bascially I would not have had to buy a
> new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much...
> but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying.  :(

Personally, I'm glad to see papy doing something, although I believe they
may have gone to far.  Maybe they should have simply banned that individual
from their servers rather than banning them from the entire service...  
That's a judgment call.  

When you were given notice that you were banned,were you also given notice
concerning the appeals process?  I've checked their site, briefly, and don't
find any link to an appeals process, the 'reporting' process is quite clear.  
The only things I see wrong with this process, is that they ban you from
more than just their servers, might not be a clear appeals process and the
same person can be acting as judge, jury and exectutioner.

--
Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing?
Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club.  http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays,
starting at ~10:15 PM Eastern for ~1.5 hours

Type7

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

by Type7 » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 00:52:29

On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:35:19 +0100, "Carol Bekker"


>Have you checked the license etc that came with the product, if there is no
>mention about their rights to stop you using online mode of play, then
>surely it is ilegal to stop a main part of the functionality of a product
>which you payed for?

I agree. Whether you are an intentional wrecker or not they have no
legal right to stop you using what you *paid* for.
Gregor Vebl

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

by Gregor Vebl » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 00:55:44

On the other hand, I am not sure whether the free matching service
Sierra provides is considered as a part of the deal.

-Gregor


> I agree. Whether you are an intentional wrecker or not they have no
> legal right to stop you using what you *paid* for.

Jacob Butne

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

by Jacob Butne » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:01:13

They have just disallowed racing NR4 on WON correct?  IIRC there is nothing
stopping him from running races thru direct IP connections..  This may not
be covered in NR4 license, but I'm sure they have something in the WON
service usage that states anything unbecoming to the WON service or users
will result in an immediate ban from the service.. which, IMHO they have
every right do to..  But then again, there is a line between intential
wrecking and just a bad day or bad race..

-Jacob

PS.. Of course, IMHO, using any vuglar language should result in a ban...
But thats just me...


> On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:35:19 +0100, "Carol Bekker"

> >Have you checked the license etc that came with the product, if there is
no
> >mention about their rights to stop you using online mode of play, then
> >surely it is ilegal to stop a main part of the functionality of a product
> >which you payed for?

> I agree. Whether you are an intentional wrecker or not they have no
> legal right to stop you using what you *paid* for.


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