rec.autos.simulators

by **Carol Bekke** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:43:19

Righto, thought it must be something like that.

by **David Er** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 02:11:08

Hogwash. Under common law all businesses have the legal right to protect
their assets and the rest of their customers from the actions of customers
that are behaveing in a manner that is designed to damage those assets and
decrease the pleasure of the remainder of the customers. For instance: a
green fee permit for a golf course does not give the right to damage the
greens or interfer with the enjoyment of the course by other golfers even if
those prohibitions are not explicitly printed on the green fee ticket.

Your argument regarding the legalities of the situation would be laughed out
of court.

Dav-Erb

> On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:35:19 +0100, "Carol Bekker"

> >Have you checked the license etc that came with the product, if there is
no
> >mention about their rights to stop you using online mode of play, then
> >surely it is ilegal to stop a main part of the functionality of a product
> >which you payed for?

> I agree. Whether you are an intentional wrecker or not they have no
> legal right to stop you using what you *paid* for.

by **B. Hilt** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 02:35:45

Why don't I stop racing when I have a severely damaged car? Because
I'm a real racer... and with the rating system Papy designed, we all
want every point we can get. If I wanted to wreck the field... I
would have not let 30 cars pass my cleanly.

I do admit it was my fault...it was due to a delayed reaction time on
my part AND the leader going much faster than me. All in all... he
did not wreck and he kept on going as fast as he did before.

There seriously could be major legal issues here if one wanted to get
that involved...because what if for instance I had paid for a server
to start up my own league and then become banned? Could you sue for
this? What about the fact that they CANNOT prove that I was
"intentionally wrecking" the guy like the rule is stated. How about
the fact there was never a wreck? Prob some interesting stuff
there... oh well

But anyways, I appreciate everyone's opinions on this... i knew there
would be some not believe me... of course those are the racers that
are still racing online and think... 'well i'll never get banned so i
don't have to worry about it'... well i thought that too.

If anyone wants the replay I got it....
They have even banned me from the Nascar 4 Forum on the www.papy.com
webpage

If it's not too much trouble... email papy at online....@papy.com and
tell them what you think. Whether it be about banning me under their
assumption I'm am a a wrecker, or banning in general.

Anything you can do to help me (and all the others that are, or will
be banned when they do not wreck intentionally) PLEASE do!

thanks so much! God Bless :)

Brandon

Vintook" <Vint...@home.com> wrote in message <news:H5Ph7.188773$Jg.21028272@typhoon.kc.rr.com>...
> HAHAHAH. GOOD. One less wrecker to have to deal with.

> Vintook

> "B. Hilton" <dcibra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:34409625.0108250313.69c75ae5@posting.google.com...
> > From: dcibra...@yahoo.com (B. Hilton)
> > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar
> > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!
> > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3
> > Message-ID: <34409625.0108250304.56d51...@posting.google.com>

> > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from
> > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they
> > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL.
> > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the
> > only thing worth a crap to play.

> > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4
> > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to
> > what they call "wrecking".

> > here's their rules:
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR? Racing 4
> > Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking*

> > *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider
> > reporting an incident of intentional wrecking.

> > In an effort to give the NASCAR? Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue
> > to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if
> > all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will
> > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT
> > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled
> > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents".

> > Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing
> > these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not
> > incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue
> > this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is
> > legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we
> > will no longer accept reports from that individual.
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to
> > race their game online was not good business practice and bad
> > morally).
> > So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY
> > LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone.
> > Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature...
> > where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and
> > LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which
> > that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker.

> > Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the
> > emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay
> > from which they banned me from.

> > As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS
> > TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons
> > #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps
> > and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the
> > field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every
> > car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact.
> > #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!!

> > here's what they call me a wrecker from:
> > As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin
> > in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me
> > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the
> > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove
> > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass
> > me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the
> > leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them
> > pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the
> > same area trying to get out of the way of each other.
> > So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left
> > rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him
> > you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his
> > car!!!

> > Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage
> > (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a
> > few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had
> > to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and
> > continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over
> > again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on
> > turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when
> > coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the
> > wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the
> > frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with
> > another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured.
> > Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as
> > before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was
> > out to wreck him intentionally.

> > With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to
> > go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to
> > get... but they don't see it that way I guess.

> > Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a
> > new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking
> > is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the
> > best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away
> > from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought
> > it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once
> > in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing
> > online, for good.

> > I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to
> > the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were
> > still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They
> > responded again rudely against that.

> > I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of
> > you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem
> > showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay,
> > although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK.

> > I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns
> > me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy
> > may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case.

> > Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in
> > this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive
> > about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a
> > pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new
> > computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb
> > ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel
> > and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a
> > new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much...
> > but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :(

> > I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days,
> > purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up
> > through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar
> > game just to race online.

> > If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the
> > never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email
> > me at dcibra...@yahoo.com and I would be happy to send them to you. :)

> > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general?
> > email papy's manager at online....@papy.com

> > thanks for your time!

> > BH
> > Dodgefan!

by **Phillip Malphrus, Jr** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 02:37:57

The only problem I have with that judgement was it was based on one race. I
mean, come on, one race? He was involved in 2 incidents? A wrecker is
someone who goes out and repeatedly does that every race. I would hope that
they would not base banning someone for life on the basis of one race! Hell,
Tywee would have been banned before, errrr, hey! Nevermind! J/K. Anyways, it
should not be based on 1 replay IMO. With warping, you all know replays can
be different. What if the dude had a bad connect and what he saw was a tick
off from what everyone else saw in that one race? 1 race? Seems harsh

> Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar
> Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3

> The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from
> racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they
> will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL.
> The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the
> only thing worth a ***to play.

> Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4
> Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to
> what they call "wrecking".

> here's their rules:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR? Racing 4
> Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking*

> *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider
> reporting an incident of intentional wrecking.

> In an effort to give the NASCAR? Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue
> to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if
> all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will
> need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT
> the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled
> drivers, or plain old "racing incidents".

> Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing
> these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not
> incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue
> this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is
> legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we
> will no longer accept reports from that individual.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to
> race their game online was not good business practice and bad
> morally).
> So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY
> LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone.
> Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature...
> where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and
> LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which
> that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker.

> Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the
> emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay
> from which they banned me from.

> As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS
> TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons
> #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps
> and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the
> field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every
> car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact.
> #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!!

> here's what they call me a wrecker from:
> As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin
> in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me
> (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the
> racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove
> to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass
> me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the
> leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them
> pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the
> same area trying to get out of the way of each other.
> So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left
> rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him
> you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his
> car!!!

> Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage
> (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a
> few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had
> to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and
> continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over
> again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on
> turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when
> coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the
> wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the
> frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with
> another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured.
> Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as
> before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was
> out to wreck him intentionally.

> With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to
> go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to
> get... but they don't see it that way I guess.

> Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a
> new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking
> is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the
> best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away
> from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought
> it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once
> in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing
> online, for good.

> I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to
> the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were
> still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They
> responded again rudely against that.

> I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of
> you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem
> showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay,
> although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK.

> I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns
> me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy
> may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case.

> Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in
> this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive
> about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a
> pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new
> computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb
> ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel
> and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a
> new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much...
> but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :(

> I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days,
> purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up
> through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar
> game just to race online.

> If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the
> never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email

> Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general?

> thanks for your time!

> BH
> Dodgefan!

by **mustan** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 02:48:52

> NO! Papy is of the view that if you intentionally wreck others, you don't
> get to play. If you are just a crappy driver you will not get banned.

I dunno. I suck pretty bad. (That's why I rarely play onine ...) But
when I wreck (usually totally by accident because I overdrove the car)
it certainly LOOKS intentional. (And the other computer users can't see
the "OOPS" or "OH DAMN" look on my face!)

by **Biz** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 03:20:38

Papy said they were going to trry and clean it up. What I would be
concerned about is the guy who complained to get you banned. You're getting
pissed at totally the wrong people about this.

--
Biz

"Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand
alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and
the....." - Ash