rec.autos.simulators

by **Thom j** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:40:50

Well BH you just said it yourself "my car was almost completely
destroyed." Was it worth it to stay on the track? If you are/were
a rated 7 then '15 extra laps' of racing damaged would have hurt
your rating but again it is too late now..
I undertsand your "frustration" but I also see the others opinion.
Tuff call & thats up to the decsision makers.. Sorry pardner but
it looks like you cut right in front of 'JM99' not matter what you
sell here.. I am the last to be a 'hard azz' but you openly posted
here and if many here see your replay, it doesnt look good..
Good Luck -Thom_j.

| Remember... I didn't HIT anyone... he kept on going.
|
| Yes, I was having a major bad race...I totally admit that... my car
| was almost completely destroyed...and not to mention it WAS my
| fault... but TOTALLY NOT INTENTIONAL!!! I don't even know who that
| guy was... and I would have no reason to go after him. and by the
| way... the sharp turns are due to a blown tire which with only a few
| laps left I wanted to make it around the track to keep from losing
| those valuable spots with the freakin ratings system haha
|
| By the way guys... I was at a 7 rating... so prob. right up there with
| the guy "whoever he was" that I so-called went after. I wouldn't go
| wrecking people with that kind of rating that I had worked my ***off
| for also. I'm in a big league as well... so why haven't they got rid
| of me if I'm a wrecker?
|
| If I was going after to wreck him.... believe me... i would have come
| off the turn LOW and then swerved up high to put him into the wall
| like most do me lol
|
| I also noticed when I rewatched the replay some of my "sharp turns"
| are for warping wrecked cars sitting on the track as well.
|
| Ya know.. I don't remember wreckers being such a problem in N3...
| maybe this rating system is what has caused it all.
|
| oh yea one more problem... why didn't I just exit the race? well...
| papy designed it where you have to come to a complete stop to even
| exit the race which sucks.
|
| I appoligise for that guy that I swerved in front of... but i didn't
| wreck him... so that is why I didn't say anything to him.
|
| How does papy distinguish "Intentional Wrecking" rather than just
| something weird that COULD happen like steering wheel breaking (i had
| that happen to me a few months ago... the bungee inside the wheel
| snapped while turning at daytona... end up me taking out a lot of cars
| cause i was leading at the time)... or things that I hear other people
| say like.. "the phone rang"... "someone was at the door" ... "my kids
| were fighting"... "my kid/dog jumping into my lap".... heck
| personally... my montior even flickered off in one race back in the N3
| days.
|
| To me it's just called ONLINE RACING... people make mistakes... did
| any of you watch the Bristol race last night? Even real nascar driver
| do stupid things right?
|
| I am not saying it was not my fault cause it was... I'm not saying
| i've never been in a wreck either... cause God knows online racing,
| it's people sitting in front of a computer trying to be real drivers
| isn't gonna happen all the time.... what I AM SAYING is... NOTHING WAS
| INTENTIONAL....never has been and never will be.
|
| I have gotten more upset over all of this after the way papy acted...
| I think there are many other solutions rather than banning me
| permanently from racing online. We all know the offline AI....
| well... lets just say I've never raced a full race offline cause it is
| a waste of time.
|
| I am not the only one who has been banned on suspicion of being an
| intentional wrecker and is not... papy might be going just a lil too
| far on some things now.
|
| I'm tired of these "quick fixes" to solve everything... quit banning
| people and fix the game and the rating system to WORK the right way!!!
|
| oh well... i'll cya back online soon haha
|
|
| BH
|
|
|
|
|

| > Sadly B. Hilton I know the person you hit and yes you did hit
| > him via the replay. He is an extremely serious racer and to me
| > it does look like you just 'cut right into him' but this is not my
| > call. Good luck but [for me] I would have to see more then a
| > 14sec replay to see how you race & your style but JMichaels
| > is super serious about his ICs & ratings!! I'd guess his rating
| > is atleast an 6-8 or so?
| > Btw: When you hit JMichaels, you gave him an IC. He was a
| > major advocator of getting wreckers offline, IIRC?
| > Good luck in your quest.. -Thom_j.
| >
| >
| >
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by **Thom j** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:44:53

Yes Mike, My point before I saw the replay was if you are high
you always 'try' to stay high & hold your line but seeing he was
low & went back up on the track & then back down into JM99
it looks intentional. Not that is was but it does look that way..

"Mike Grandy" wrote:

| After watching it from the cockpit mode it looks to me like he had time to
| get low. That however was far from the case and taking into consideration
| that things in the mirror appear smaller than they really are, it may have
| been an honest mistake. Not sure why you didn't stay on the the bottom
since
| you were already there and slow enough to hold that line.
|
| Mike Grandy
| Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team
| 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale
|
|
|
|
|
|
| "Alex Kihurani" <aga...@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
| news:Xe_h7.1348$Ia1.196019@typhoon1.gnilink.net...
| Okay, I got the replay from B. Hilton, and it looked REALLY bad. Ok,
here's
| what really happens.
|
| 1. He's driving slow along the apron and switching back on to the track in
| 3rd gear, and everyone starts to go by.
|
| 2. He goes up onto the track, and all of a sudden his speed increases
| dramatically and goes from about 90mph to over 135 when he comes out of
the
| turn.
|
| 3. You see the leader come up behind him through his review mirrors, and
is
| down low to make the pass.
|
| 4. When you see the front of the nose what looks like is lined up with the
| rear of the car, he suddenly swerves down at a VERY great angle
|
| 5. The leader tries to turn down with him so he doesn't get hit, but
| Dodgefan (or B. Hilton) doesn't stop moving down the track
|
| 6. They don't make contact until he's actually on the white dotted line
that
| seperates the apron (well not much of one on the straight) to the track. I
| tried swerving at that angle, at that speed, and tried to turn back at the
| white dotted line (i looked at the replay and tried several times to make
| sure I had the right angle) and most of the time, trying not to hit the
| wall, I had such a big pendulum swing that a lot of times I couldn't get
it
| back. Of course, after a did it a whole lot and used some left foot
braking
| I could JUST hang onto it, and this is with the easy setup btw. Actually,
to
| turn so hard down the track, I had to turn the wheel as much as I could.
It
| was no slight move, you can literally feel the car hurl to the inside.
|
| Also, he swerved after the corner, and at a VERY great angle. I don't
think
| if you move to the inside to let the leaders pass you swerve at an angle
| onto the apron that has a great chance of you spinning out and loosing
more
| time.
|
| Though, the leader did hit him, but got lucky because he turned down the
| track with him and Dodgefan only got the tip of his nose, so the leader
went
| and motored on.
|
| You can check out the 14 seconds of the wreck here:
| http://www.runnyegg.com/alex/dodgefanwreck.zip
|
| I uploaded it for everyone so they can make their own decision. But I have
| to say, that's beyond ignorance and being oblivious IMO.
|
| I still don't know if he's a hardcore wrecker or a good driver who just
had
| a dark, frustrated moment, and took someone out. But still, there was no
| doubt in my mind that it was intentional.
|
| Thanks,
| Alex
|
|
|
| B. Hilton <dcibra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| news:34409625.0108250313.69c75ae5@posting.google.com...
| > From: dcibra...@yahoo.com (B. Hilton)
| > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar
| > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!
| > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3
| > Message-ID: <34409625.0108250304.56d51...@posting.google.com>
| >
| > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from
| > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they
| > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL.
| > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the
| > only thing worth a crap to play.
| >
| > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4
| > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to
| > what they call "wrecking".
| >
| > here's their rules:
| > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
| > Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR? Racing 4
| > Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking*
| >
| > *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider
| > reporting an incident of intentional wrecking.
| >
| > In an effort to give the NASCAR? Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue
| > to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if
| > all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will
| > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT
| > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled
| > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents".
| >
| > Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing
| > these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not
| > incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue
| > this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is
| > legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we
| > will no longer accept reports from that individual.
| > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
| >
| > Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to
| > race their game online was not good business practice and bad
| > morally).
| > So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY
| > LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone.
| > Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature...
| > where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and
| > LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which
| > that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker.
| >
| > Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the
| > emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay
| > from which they banned me from.
| >
| > As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS
| > TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons
| > #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps
| > and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the
| > field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every
| > car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact.
| > #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!!
| >
| > here's what they call me a wrecker from:
| > As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin
| > in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me
| > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the
| > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove
| > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass
| > me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the
| > leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them
| > pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the
| > same area trying to get out of the way of each other.
| > So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left
| > rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him
| > you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his
| > car!!!
| >
| > Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage
| > (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a
| > few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had
| > to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and
| > continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over
| > again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on
| > turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when
| > coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the
| > wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the
| > frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with
| > another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured.
| > Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as
| > before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was
| > out to wreck him intentionally.
| >
| > With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to
| > go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to
| > get... but they don't see it that way I guess.
| >
| > Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a
| > new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking
| > is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the
| > best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away
| > from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought
| > it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once
| > in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing
| > online, for good.
| >
| > I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to
| > the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were
| > still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They
| > responded again rudely against that.
| >
| > I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of
| > you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem
| > showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay,
| > although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK.
| >
| > I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns
| > me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy
| > may ...

read more »

by **Eldre** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:03:23

>Sure, let's all run over to the papy forum and get banned for you...

I thought about that, too...

I'm sure a LOT of people have multiple ID's. One for league races, one for
'pickup' races. That would keep your LPI numbers from being screwed in a
pickup race, and messing up your rating to get in your league race.

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Eldre** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:03:24

>>ban is final. My response to you saying somebody else may
>>have been using your ID is that it is YOUR responsibility to pw protect
>>your ID

>OH! So what you're showing here in this little email is that you told us
>your
>account of the events, telling us that you have had a bad on the track and
>had
>nearly taken out the leaders in a way that may have been mistaken for
>intentional wrecking. BUT, instead of telling Papy this, you decided to tell

>them that someone had used your ID without your knowledge. Okay. Which is
>the truth. Or is neither one the truth and did you really get caught with
>your hand in the cookie jar?

I think the moderator was trying to shut down that argument before it started.
At least in THAT part of the message...

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Eldre** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:03:22

>By the way guys... I was at a 7 rating... so prob. right up there with
>the guy "whoever he was" that I so-called went after. I wouldn't go
>wrecking people with that kind of rating that I had worked my ***off
>for also. I'm in a big league as well... so why haven't they got rid
>of me if I'm a wrecker?

I've heard people say that there are wreckers even in high-rating races - where
you'd THINK you'd be safe...

That's not really a valid argument. Did you crash by yourself, then get going
for a while, then almost crash into the leaders? So, during the time you were
running after your crash(at least enough time for the leaders to catch you
again), you would have known that you couldn't control the car well enough. If
you had parked it then, we wouldn't be having this discussion. If you had hit
the wall, spun around, ended up stopped in the racing line and THEN gotten hit
by someone, that would obviously be an unfortunate racing incident. I think
people would have to see the *entire* replay from the initial crash that
damaged your car to the near crash with the leader. Are you brave enough to
let people download and view that?

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Thom j** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:05:30

Well Eddie P, you said it better then I ever could and so I am
bowing' out of this mess. phew. It's starting to become funny
if it werent so tragic.. Ouch!! Happy Threading All!! :)

|
| > Remember... I didn't HIT anyone... he kept on going.
|
| Well, if you are a wrecker, you just aren't a very good one. Wrecking's a
| skill just like racing, you have to be in the right place at the right
time
| and you must time your deed perfectly to catch your prey...
|
| > guy was... and I would have no reason to go after him. and by the
| > way... the sharp turns are due to a blown tire which with only a few
| > laps left I wanted to make it around the track to keep from losing
| > those valuable spots with the freakin ratings system
|
| Ah, now we have another 'fact'. Why was this blown tire never previously
| mentioned? And what's that about these 'valuable' spots in the rating
| system? I've never understood why this 'rating' would matter...
|
| > for also. I'm in a big league as well... so why haven't they got rid
| > of me if I'm a wrecker?
|
| What league is this, and why aren't they chiming in? URL?
|
| > How does papy distinguish "Intentional Wrecking" rather than just
| > something weird that COULD happen like steering wheel breaking (i had
| > that happen to me a few months ago... the bungee inside the wheel
| > snapped while turning at daytona... end up me taking out a lot of cars
|
| Now you have a history of these 'unintentional' incidents... But, had
| someone turned you in for that event, they'd have only seen one incident,
| unless of course you tried to continue on...
|
| > I am not the only one who has been banned on suspicion of being an
| > intentional wrecker and is not... papy might be going just a lil too
| > far on some things now.
|
| You know, you say that, yet I don't see this thread full of "They banned
me
| too!" posts...
|
| > I'm tired of these "quick fixes" to solve everything... quit banning
| > people and fix the game and the rating system to WORK the right way!!!
|
| Probably against the death penalty too, but that's another thread...
| Probably be equal in size though...
|
| --
| Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing?
| Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club. http://www.scprc.com
| Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays,
| starting at ~10:15 PM Eastern for ~1.5 hours

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by **mustan** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:41:25

I'll give it this much. From the outside view it looked bad and
intentional.

From the***pit view (his) it didn't look too severe. From the***pit
of the person he cut off it looked like the morons that you see on the
highway in the morning trying to make their exit ramp from the center
lane.

by **Cliff Roma** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:16:30

Well as much as I agree with Papy trying to clean up the racing a little
bit, I do think that what they are doing is a bit harsh.

1. I do not think that they should ban someone from one report/incident.
I think that a warning could be given (maybe put all the CD-Keys in a list
that have a warning and when the person logs in the MOTD mentions to them
that they have a warning) and then upon further incidents a ban may be
necessary. I imagine that if this was you for a complete accident and you
were all of a sudden banned, your view may be different?

2. Why do they need to be banned from total online racing? Why not just ban
them from the Papy servers since those are the only ones that Papy is
monitoring and to be quite honest, the only servers Papy should have any say
about.

3. Kinda leads from #2. I would not be surprised if Papy found themselves
in legal action for this. Can you honestly sell someone a game like this
and then ban them from using it? I am not going to get into the EULA
because according to that, you can not eat toast while playing N4.

> Unfortuantely thats what I got out of it. I've probably even done it
myself
> unintentionally.

> Mike Grandy
> Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team
> 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale

> >If you think about it, theres a damaged car high coming off turn 2 and
the
> >leaders are coming up from behind. The lap car comes down across the
track
> >in front of the leaders and wrecks them. What does that look like to you?

> That's what I was thinking. From the description, it SOUNDS deliberate.
> Viewing the replay, it would probably LOOK deliberate, too. Not saying it
> was,
> but I think people can see why the victim would think so.

> Eldred
> --
> Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

> Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats
you
> with experience...
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Cliff Roma** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:22:36

Hardly, Papy could not prove it was Intentional.

They could say it looked intentional, but the court would know that
accidents happen.

There is no way that Papy could prove that he did it intentionally.

by **Goy Larse** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:32:57

> >Yeah revved, how could you..........you....you....you evil person you

> rrevved is a big fan of *plonking*, you should ask him about the
> *plonk* wars of '99 sometime.

If you go back and read the statement rrevved quoted to you, I think
you'll agree that it wasn't the most well thought out statement you've
ever seen :-)

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

"A woman is an occasional pleasure but a cigar is always a smoke"
--Groucho Marx--

by **Cliff Roma** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:31:03

I think what he means is this.. imagine that you are going into turn 3 at
michigan and you spin your car.

Your car is now in the way of others. Well a few things could happen here.
One, others could go slamming into you, call you a intentional wrecker and
maybe you are the next on the banned list.

Personally, if I slammed into the wall and I was coming off the wall in
front of traffic and I knew my day was pretty much over, I would quickly hit
ESC, get out of their way and get out of the race. You can not do that
now, the way it is now, you could easily cause a 5-6 car pileup before you
can stop the car and get out of it.

by **Cliff Roma** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:35:00

Real racers make mistakes, and yes.. there have been cases of real WC lapped
cars taking out the leaders on accident. Guess what? they were there to
race the next week

by **Mike Grand** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:50:18

Thats why I always watch a replay from the***pit, it really gives you a
better perspective.

Mike Grandy
Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team
3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale

I'll give it this much. From the outside view it looked bad and
intentional.

From the***pit view (his) it didn't look too severe. From the***pit
of the person he cut off it looked like the morons that you see on the
highway in the morning trying to make their exit ramp from the center
lane.

by **Mike Grand** » Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:54:55

Ok Cliff, put down the beer and step back.... you are taking this way to seriously. It would be much cheaper to go buy another game then to hire an attorney.

Mike Grandy

Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team

3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale

Hardly, Papy could not prove it was Intentional.

They could say it looked intentional, but the court would know that
accidents happen.

There is no way that Papy could prove that he did it intentionally.

> >And what about the people being banned unfairly? They do have a case
> >and would win if they could prove it in court.
>
> He would have to prove that he was banned unfairly and from the account he
> posted, he would have a very hard time doing that when the replay was
viewed
> in court.
>
>
> Dave Casey
> Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4)
> www.teamcasey.net
> www.lvkc.com
> www.buycoolcrap.com

by **Type7** » Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:05:01

>If you go back and read the statement rrevved quoted to you, I think
>you'll agree that it wasn't the most well thought out statement you've
>ever seen :-)

No, but then it wasn't meant to be. It was a deliberate reactionary
statement. My *plonk* was a joke to rrevved because he is/used to be
so fond of plonking people.

rec.autos.simulators

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS