rec.autos.simulators

>Personally, if I slammed into the wall and I was coming off the wall in
>front of traffic and I knew my day was pretty much over, I would quickly hit
>ESC, get out of their way and get out of the race.   You can not do that
>now, the way it is now, you could easily cause a 5-6 car pileup before you
>can stop the car and get out of it.

>In my house I have two kids that are both old enough and qualified
>enough to drive online. Both are rather good, with better ratings and
>LPI than I have. LOL. However, in their online sessions, if they get
>deemed to have intentionally caused an incident, on THEIR account,
>with THEIR player profile loaded, I think it is quite wrong to ban the
>CD Key for all players. It is apparent that Sierra and Papy can
>distinguish what player was logged on, I feel they should ban the
>player account, not the CD. Also, If they are going to monitor PAPY
>servers, they should ban only for PAPy servers.

>With the current policy, I could be hosting on MY server, with MY
>purchased CD Key, on MY network and still be banned because of someone
>else's OPINION that I or someone in my household performed in a manner
>that caused an incident online.

>The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from
>racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they
>will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL.  
>The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the
>only thing worth a ***to play.

>Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4
>Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to
>what they call "wrecking".

>here's their rules:
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR? Racing 4
>Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking*

>*Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider
>reporting an incident of intentional wrecking.

>In an effort to give the NASCAR? Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue
>to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if
>all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will
>need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT
>the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled
>drivers, or plain old "racing incidents".

>Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing
>these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not
>incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue
>this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is
>legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we
>will no longer accept reports from that individual.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to
>race their game online was not good business practice and bad
>morally).
>So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY
>LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone.
>Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature...
>where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and
>LPI (laps per incident).  My ratings were VERY high for both... which
>that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker.

>Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the
>emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay
>from which they banned me from.

>As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS
>TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons
>#1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps
>and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the
>field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every
>car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact.
>#2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!!

>here's what they call me a wrecker from:
>As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin
>in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me
>(since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the
>racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove
>to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass
>me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the
>leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them
>pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the
>same area trying to get out of the way of each other.
>So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left
>rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him
>you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his
>car!!!

>Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage
>(haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a
>few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had
>to complete a few more laps to help my score.  So I kept going... and
>continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over
>again.  Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on
>turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when
>coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the
>wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the
>frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with
>another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured.
>Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as
>before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was
>out to wreck him intentionally.

>With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to
>go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to
>get... but they don't see it that way I guess.

>Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a
>new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion.   See, my thinking
>is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the
>best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away
>from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought
>it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once
>in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing
>online, for good.

>I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to
>the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were
>still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up.  They
>responded again rudely against that.

>I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of
>you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it.  I have no problem
>showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay,
>although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK.

>I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns
>me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy
>may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case.

>Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in
>this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive
>about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a
>pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new
>computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb
>ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel
>and pedals from thrustmaster.  Bascially I would not have had to buy a
>new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much...
>but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying.  :(

>I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days,
>purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up
>through Nascar 4.  Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar
>game just to race online.

>If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the
>never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email

>Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general?

>thanks for your time!

>BH
>Dodgefan!

>Thanks,
>Alex


>> here's an interesting email someone sent me:

>> When I purchased the N4 software, the license agreement states that it
>> is a "feature" of the software that enables me to drive on the sierra
>> network. It does not say it is a "privilege". It also makes no
>> statement that feature functionality of the product can/will be
>> removed based upon the "opinion" of someone else as it relates to my
>> driving ability or my driving judgement. If I bought a new car, and
>> Chevy removed the radio after three months because in their opinion,
>> they didn't like the fact I played Perry Como CD's, I would be rather
>> upset.

>> This brings up a second point. I am not the only one that uses my CD
>> key in my household. The game has feature functionality built into it
>> in the player area that allows you to set up more than one player. It
>> holds the sierra account info in this separate player.ini file.

>> In my house I have two kids that are both old enough and qualified
>> enough to drive online. Both are rather good, with better ratings and
>> LPI than I have. LOL. However, in their online sessions, if they get
>> deemed to have intentionally caused an incident, on THEIR account,
>> with THEIR player profile loaded, I think it is quite wrong to ban the
>> CD Key for all players. It is apparent that Sierra and Papy can
>> distinguish what player was logged on, I feel they should ban the
>> player account, not the CD. Also, If they are going to monitor PAPY
>> servers, they should ban only for PAPy servers.

>> With the current policy, I could be hosting on MY server, with MY
>> purchased CD Key, on MY network and still be banned because of someone
>> else's OPINION that I or someone in my household performed in a manner
>> that caused an incident online.

>> I think Papy and Seirra need to take another look at this policy.

>>> In my house I have two kids that are both old enough and qualified
>>> enough to drive online. Both are rather good, with better ratings and
>>> LPI than I have. LOL.

>> Poor kids...

>As this thread twists, he keeps bringing in new things...  If these kids
>have better ratings and LPI than you, why do you start by saying they are
>old enough and qualified enough?  That implies they aren't yet racing
>online.

>So you lied...you flat out lied to Papy. So much for that "i'm a strong
>christian" part a bit earlier, eh? In those emails you posted, you stated to
>them that you are the ONLY one that uses your computer, and now you're
>saying you have two kids that race also. So which is it?

> The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from
> racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they
> will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL.
> The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the
> only thing worth a ***to play.

> I do not know about you, but I do not like just throwing $40 out the
window.
> If you do, let me email you my paypal account info :)

> > Seems to me if it mattered that much for someone to be able to continue
> > racing online, they'd just go pick up another copy of the game and learn
> > from the experience.
> > Certainly, if it happened to me and it was a complete accident, I would
> > argue the decision with Papy, but if it held I would just go grab
another
> > copy of the game if I wanted to continue racing on the Won service.

> > Don Burnette

> > > Well as much as I agree with Papy trying to clean up the racing a
little
> > > bit, I do think that what they are doing is a bit harsh.

> > > 1.  I do not think that they should ban someone from one
> report/incident.
> > > I think that a warning could be given (maybe put all the CD-Keys in a
> list
> > > that have a warning and when the person logs in the MOTD mentions to
> them
> > > that they have a warning) and then upon further incidents a ban may be
> > > necessary.   I imagine that if this was you for a complete accident
and
> > you
> > > were all of a sudden banned, your view may be different?

> > > 2. Why do they need to be banned from total online racing?  Why not
just
> > ban
> > > them from the Papy servers since those are the only ones that Papy is
> > > monitoring and to be quite honest, the only servers Papy should have
any
> > say
> > > about.

> > > 3. Kinda leads from #2.   I would not be surprised if Papy found
> > themselves
> > > in legal action for this.  Can you honestly sell someone a game like
> this
> > > and then ban them from using it?  I am not going to get into the EULA
> > > because according to that, you can not eat toast while playing N4.

> > > > Unfortuantely thats what I got out of it. I've probably even done it
> > > myself
> > > > unintentionally.

> > > > Mike Grandy
> > > > Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team
> > > > 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale

> > Grandy"

> > > > >If you think about it, theres a damaged car high coming off turn 2
> and
> > > the
> > > > >leaders are coming up from behind. The lap car comes down across
the
> > > track
> > > > >in front of the leaders and wrecks them. What does that look like
to
> > you?

> > > > That's what I was thinking.  From the description, it SOUNDS
> deliberate.
> > > > Viewing the replay, it would probably LOOK deliberate, too.  Not
> saying
> > it
> > > > was,
> > > > but I think people can see why the victim would think so.

> > > > Eldred
> > > > --
> > > > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
> > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> > > > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

> > > > Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then
> beats
> > > you
> > > > with experience...
> > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> Wait until it happens to you.

> David G Fisher

> > Guys,

> > I've gotten crashed out by wreckers so often that I am grateful to Papy
> for
> > having started taking action, and their anti-wrecker measures have had a
> > positive effect on the quality of the races on WON.

> > If Dodgefans' moves were just bad judgement, I'm sorry to hear he got
> > banned, but after reading his mail and watching the excerpt from the
> replay
> > Alex uploaded, I have to say that if this doesn't at least _look_ like
> > wrecking, then what should wrecking look like. Especially if you
consider
> > that Dodgefan's mishaps always affected the same other driver.

> > If we want protection from wreckers, we'll have to accept the odd
> > mis-judgement. This is none different in 'real life'. We asked for
> measures
> > against wreckers to be taken, as we all were suffering from wreckers
> badly,
> > Papy decided to do us the favour although it's obviously an unpleasant
> job,
> > and IMHO we should thank them instead of letting them down when they're
> only
> > trying to help us.

> > I don't think Papy would mind good suggestions on how to improve the
> > situation, maybe use a 'second chance' type of system of punishments or
> > temporary bans (2 months on first offence, 6 months on second?). But
> > starting to muse about legal action when Papy is only trying to help us
is
> > not the way to go.

> > Achim