rec.autos.simulators

by **Scott B. Huste** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:13:24

*applause*

--
Scott B. Husted
"PA-Scott"
ICQ# 4395450

> Where exactly do you get your stats on "most sensible people"?You know
> David, if you could base your arguments on something other than your
> own bigotry and subjective interpretations of what has happened you
> might make a valid point now and again. Instead you've evaded the
> opportunity to address the statistical facts. We're not interested in
> the opinion of "everyone you've spoken to" or your evaluation of the
> performance of NASCAR fans on call-in shows. Your bigoted references
> to WWF betray your motives. You just don't like NASCAR or NASCAR fans
> because you identify them with a social class that you perceive
> yourself as being "better than".

> BD

> >I have news for you Don, most sensible people outside of the NASCAR fans
> >feel the same way I do. Every person I've spoken to thinks NASCAR is a
joke
> >right now. I live in the fourth largest market in the U.S. One of the
most
> >listened to sports talk radio stations in the country is here (never
> >discusses NASCAR though, wonder why?). Since Earnhardt's death, I've been
> >listening to NASCAR fans call in and desperately trying to convince the
> >hosts and the public that their sport isn't badly run and basically the
WWF
> >on wheels. They failed miserably. I am in the vast majority with my
opinions
> >on this subject. Maybe not on a newsgroup with NASCAR sim fans, but
> >definitely within the general public. Others in this thread agree with me
as
> >well. The last thing I'll do is apologize for criticizing a sport which
has
> >had four deaths in nine months.

> >David G Fisher

by **Don Burnett** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:06:10

Jealousy is not a good virtue.

--
Don Burnette

> well, the sotry of the brown paper bag is typical of the american way of
> thinking, it's okay to get drunk on the street as long as you hide it in a
> paper bag, even if everybody knows what's in the paperbag.
> It's okay to *** your secretary if you go to church on the sunday morning
> with your loving wife and kids

> > Now Now Jan, We all don't drink beer here in the US you know!! We do
> > have cheap "Thunderbird Wine" too! It's even better in a brown paper bag
> > and especially while we're all*** on street corners gettin`
> > drunk...haha
> > Cheers Thom_j.

> > | Hey... that's not so bad. If the beer were any good, that is. <g>
> > |
> > | Jan.
> > | =---
> > | Don Chapman wrote...
> > | > <snip>
> > | > Yep, stupid American general public, we have nothing to watch
> > | > but Nascar and nothing to drink but beer.
> > | >
> > | >
> > |
> > |

by **Scott B. Huste** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:12:17

No David.. everyone agrees, me included!, that NASCAR needs to address
safety NOW. No arguments. However, your approach and delivery totally
eluded that one point in your post that had any real validity to the
equation.

It is funny how you only posted those in initially agreement, but not the
others that countered. You did a good job of "picking" from the posts.
Many of those later admit that your delivery of the message left alot to be
desired. (Which I found to be an understatement.)

After the statement about the fanatic, there was a response immediately
following that sums it up nicely as well:

"Don't you think the guy who made the ridiculous post in the first place was
a fanatic and a little "overboard"?"

"David Fisher has made the stupidest post I've ever read, by anyone."

"Typical. Another loony who compares the safety record of a series that
runs
1/2 as much, 2/3rd fewer laps with 1/2 the racers, using cars that way
1200lbs with 3000lbs downforce. Furthermore name me a corner on any F1
circuit that has sustained speeds of 180mph, where the drivers run inches
apart, using 3500lbs cars??? There simply ISN'T a comparison.

Each series has it's own special needs to provide safety to it's
participants. Comparing one against the other doesn't save any lives. It
simply confuses the issue and wastes time.

NASCAR does need to do something. No doubt. NASCAR drivers need to do
something as well.....there are safety devices available that might, could,
provide additional injury protection. To the best of my knowledge NASCAR
hasn't outlawed the usage of any of these devices....it's a matter of
personal choice for the drivers."

--
Scott B. Husted
"PA-Scott"
ICQ# 4395450

by **Alan Conceic** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:12:45

I know. I just had to make the points in case no one else did. I've seen trolls
in every other NG I've been to. Not new at all. He'll be in the kill-file soon.

Dale Earnhardt, 1951-2001:
"The Last American Hero"
R.I.P.

by **Alan Conceic** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:19:20

Its a miracle that they haven't had 4 deaths in the Top Fuel ranks alone.

The point of "logic" was that in no other form of motorsport does a vehicle
acclerate and de-accelerate that quickly. It has a far higher risk factor than
NASCAR, and its safety innovations are far behind any other form of racing
(unless you count 90% nitro a innovation).

Millions more people fish then drag race. Its a comparison of apples and
oranges. Its not as valid an argument.

-
Alan

Dale Earnhardt, 1951-2001:
"The Last American Hero"
R.I.P.

by **David G Fishe** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:26:59

Considering I didn't even know my post was repeated in that forum, and
therefor had no chance to reply to anyone, you're damn right I'm going to
pick the posts that agreed with me. Quite a few did. I think you expected a
much rougher response towards me from that forum than you got. Sorry you
were disappointed.

You say, "NASCAR needs to address safety NOW". That's why I condemn it as a
poor form of motorsports. It should always be addressing safety. The death
of four drivers in nine months should not need to be the trigger for change.

Here's some changes for you:

HANS device mandatory.

Full helmets mandatory.

Driver moved to the middle of the car.

Widen the tracks. Yes, the crowd will no longer be able to be right up on
top of the track. Too bad.

Replace the concrete walls with a new, cutting edge technology. There has to
be something better than concrete. Call F1 for some ideas.

Smaller field of cars.

No forced, artificial pack racing.

Those are some simple solutions from someone who has zero interest in
NASCAR. Why can't the geniuses running the sport figure this s**t out
themselves?

David G Fisher

by **Simon Brow** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:33:51

Ok.

The only point I wanted to make was that Nascar has clearly been more
dangerous than F1 over the last 10 years, and is clearly much more dangerous
today.

by **David G Fishe** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:36:07

I have given stats.

NASCAR = four deaths in nine months.

F1= zero deaths in seven years.

NASCAR fans find these stats acceptable by continuing to support this form
of motor racing "as is". The people who run the sport accept these stats.
That's why I, and many others, see this as a poor form of auto racing. Add
in the fact that the drivers are often old and chubby, and that they run on
tracks where turning left is the only requirement, and the cars are low tech
boats, and drinking lots and lots of beer is a requirement of the fans,
then you begin to understand our views.

David G Fisher

> Where exactly do you get your stats on "most sensible people"?You know
> David, if you could base your arguments on something other than your
> own bigotry and subjective interpretations of what has happened you
> might make a valid point now and again. Instead you've evaded the
> opportunity to address the statistical facts. We're not interested in
> the opinion of "everyone you've spoken to" or your evaluation of the
> performance of NASCAR fans on call-in shows. Your bigoted references
> to WWF betray your motives. You just don't like NASCAR or NASCAR fans
> because you identify them with a social class that you perceive
> yourself as being "better than".

> BD

> >I have news for you Don, most sensible people outside of the NASCAR fans
> >feel the same way I do. Every person I've spoken to thinks NASCAR is a
joke
> >right now. I live in the fourth largest market in the U.S. One of the
most
> >listened to sports talk radio stations in the country is here (never
> >discusses NASCAR though, wonder why?). Since Earnhardt's death, I've been
> >listening to NASCAR fans call in and desperately trying to convince the
> >hosts and the public that their sport isn't badly run and basically the
WWF
> >on wheels. They failed miserably. I am in the vast majority with my
opinions
> >on this subject. Maybe not on a newsgroup with NASCAR sim fans, but
> >definitely within the general public. Others in this thread agree with me
as
> >well. The last thing I'll do is apologize for criticizing a sport which
has
> >had four deaths in nine months.

> >David G Fisher

by **Dave Henri** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:38:46

I should have been a-bit more precise...sorry...in general, the short
ovals have
really declined. I remember when Mikey Andretti would be cutting left right
and sideways passing people...doesn't seem to happen with the reduced wing
settings they use now. The cars/drivers are getting so equal that even on
the road courses, passing is getting tougher....only the Hanford Device
tracks seem
to have lots of passing.
dave henrie

by **David G Fishe** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:39:14

I'm not the only one in this thread who thinks the "mileage" arguement is
extremely flawed. AO feels the same way.

David G Fisher

> >What the hell does mileage have to do with anything? NASCAR drivers
rarely
> >use something called a brake pedal, so they will accumulate a lot of
> >mileage.

> Well, I can understand that you may have trouble answering the
> quantity of posts your trolling generated.

> But I thought you would have had time to engage some sort of
> logical processes after your initial outburst.

> You *really* can't understand that running a 1.1million man-mile
> season incurs far more risk and opportunities for mishap than a 70,000
> man-mile season?!? The concept that a single year of WC/BGN/CTS
> racing is comparable (risk exposure) to over fif*** years of F1
> action escapes you? Simply amazing.

> The only thing your reply does is further demonstrate your personal
> prejudices against a particular racing series and its fans and, in the
> process, undermine any shards of logic that may have been buried in
> your original tantrum.

> I always thought you enjoyed playing the role of RAS-iconoclast but
> actually had something useful to offer to the newsgroup from time to
> time. I admit now, I was totally wrong. You're just another troll,
> plain and simple.

> "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was
> nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into
> a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

by **Alan Orto** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:41:02

I believe drag racing camne out with the HALON fire suppression systems
and they have amazing fire suits. Their cars also have break away/
crumple zones like a F1 and CART car does to help absorb impact. They
have a very good drivers roll cage and it prevents side to side neck
damage like the high sides on a F1***pit. Also most of drag racers
wear the HANS device and other types of neck and head support. Drive
shaft loops and scatter sheilds. Belts holding the engine together
incase they blow and many other safety devices.

I would say that is more advanced then NASCAR and right up there with F1
and CART.

"Its safety innovations are far behind any other form of racing

You are right it isn't valid. I was just proving a point that the Deaths
Per mile isn't valid either.

It is rather retarded.

--
Solo1 C-Modified (CASC-OR/BARC)
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Jeff Vince** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:49:39

I agree, he's good at what he does (useless as that may be).

"But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was
nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into
a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

by **Thom j** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:52:28

Point, Set & Match Ed.. :o) Touche`
Cheers Thom_j.

|

| > For the ump***th time, there have been four driver deaths in NASCAR in
| the
| > past nine months. No driver deaths in F1 since 1994.
|
| Lets do some math:
|
| F1: 16 [17] races each season with 20 [22] drivers in each race...
| = 374 "drivers" start a race thruout a season... (based on 17 races a
| season)
|
| NASCAR: 39 races each season with an average of 40 drivers in each race...
| = 1560 "drivers" start a race thruout a season....
|
| Over four times as many drivers start a NASCAR race compared to F1 each
| season... so for every NASCAR season you can count 4 years of F1.
|
| ed_
|
|
|

by **Alan Orto** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:53:34

There is no point in debating this.
You have your opinion I'll have mine.

> I believe drag racing camne out with the HALON fire suppression systems
> and they have amazing fire suits. Their cars also have break away/
> crumple zones like a F1 and CART car does to help absorb impact. They
> have a very good drivers roll cage and it prevents side to side neck
> damage like the high sides on a F1***pit. Also most of drag racers
> wear the HANS device and other types of neck and head support. Drive
> shaft loops and scatter sheilds. Belts holding the engine together
> incase they blow and many other safety devices.

> I would say that is more advanced then NASCAR and right up there with F1
> and CART.

> "Its safety innovations are far behind any other form of racing
> > (unless you count 90% nitro a innovation).

> > Millions more people fish then drag race. Its a comparison of apples and
> > oranges. Its not as valid an argument.

> You are right it isn't valid. I was just proving a point that the Deaths
> Per mile isn't valid either.

> It is rather retarded.

> --
> Solo1 C-Modified (CASC-OR/BARC)
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

rec.autos.simulators

NASCAR Should Be Shut Down

NASCAR Should Be Shut Down

NASCAR Should Be Shut Down

NASCAR Should Be Shut Down

NASCAR Should Be Shut Down

NASCAR Should Be Shut Down

NASCAR Should Be Shut Down

NASCAR Should Be Shut Down

NASCAR Should Be Shut Down

NASCAR Should Be Shut Down

NASCAR Should Be Shut Down

NASCAR Should Be Shut Down

NASCAR Should Be Shut Down

NASCAR Should Be Shut Down

NASCAR Should Be Shut Down