rec.autos.simulators

> > some funny stuff

> That's about the most BS I've read in awhile. A couple of things, you
can't
> compare F1 and Nascar. Two totally different types of racing. Race marshal
> Paolo Ghislimberti was killed by flying debris after a collision in the
> Italian Grand Prix at Monza last year. And your comment about 60's drivers
> being foolish is just unbelievable. Nascar is not about beer and crashes.
> It's about tight racing and going the full distance. F1 is starting to
look
> like a parade lap and the only passing done in the pits. I like all forms
of
> racing, F1, Nascar, Cart, even IRL. I think you should of put a little
more
> thought in your post.
> Anthony Brooks

> From now on I'll just continue to call it a ***form of auto racing that
> has far more in common with the WWF than anything else.

> 49 year old drivers?  Artificial close racing? Dead bodies? Beer, beer,
and
> more beer.

> David G Fisher

> > Don't watch or participate in things you find to be upsetting or that
> > otherwise go against your ethical grain.  Don't force your opinions on
> > others that aren't receptive.  Much of your reasoning is flawed - you
draw
> > conclusions that are not backed up by your stated opinions masquerading
as
> > facts.  The bottom line is that, as in everything, humans are
individuals
> > and by definition make their own choices.  To put it crassly, who the
hell
> > do you think you are?  If Dale wanted to run with an open faced helmet,
> then
> > by all means, let him.  It was his life to lose, not yours.  Since your
> such
> > a big F1 fan and safety expert, then please why don't you call up Bernie
> and
> > tell him how he could've prevented that corner workers death last
season?
> > Get a grip.

> > --
> > Philip D'Amato

> > 00 ZX-6R
> > 00 S4

> > <snip>

> You knew it was going to happen, and so did I. It happens almost every
year.
> Three times last year alone. When you support an activity that you know
will
> result in the death of someone, then it's not a tragedy. It's simply
> disgusting.

> I keep hearing the phrase, "Death is a part of auto racing, and these
> drivers understand that but want to do it anyway." Bullshit. It isn't a
part
> of all types of auto racing. Just NASCAR. Formula 1 hasn't had a driver
die
> since 1994. Before that it was 1982. NASCAR is about beer and crashes.
> Safety is a science in F1, and their record proves it. They have the top
> experts in the world in charge of the safety of it's drivers. NASCAR is a
> joke and the modern equivalent of the galdiator races.

> If you support NASCAR, then you support the INEVITABLE death of it's
> drivers. How the hell are you then sad when one dies? Turns my stomach
when
> I read or see the melodramatic tributes to a fan favorite. I LOVE F1, but
if
> the drivers were dying I'd say close it down right now. I have said on
this
> newsgroup before that I didn't think the F1 drivers of the '60's as
modeled
> in GPL were brave, heroic or "real" drivers because they raced knowing
death
> was a real possibility. I think they were simply foolish people who didn't
> value their lives very much.

> There is NO reason why drivers have to die in NASCAR. It's simply a POORLY
> run, bush league type of auto racing with fans that apparently don't TRULY
> care about the safety of it's drivers. It's an embarrassment. Drivers
still
> have the choice of wearing open-faced helmets? Drivers have the choice to
> wear a neck brace that obviously could have saved the lives of previous
dead
> drivers?

> If F1 can have such a tremendous safety record, then there is NO excuse
for
> NASCAR's terrible one. It's THAT simple.

> Shut it down or just count the races until the next dead driver is pulled
> from his car. Then the people who are in charge of NASCAR, and it's fans
can
> once again pay tribute to them.

> Pathetic.

> David G Fisher

> I find it unbelieveable that a fan of auto racing would have an opinion
like
> this. I am a fan of all motorsports and unfortunately they are all
> dangerous. Death is a possibilty in ALL motorsports. To think differently
is
> to be very, very naive. Yes, Nascar does need to look at safety issues,
and
> they need to do it quickly, but to make claims that Formula 1 is the
safest,
> and that they put safety first is ridiculous. No form of auto racing is
100%
> safe and never will be. Every day you drive your car, you are risking your
> own life to some extent. Hundreds(maybe thousands) of deaths happen
everyday
> on the highways of the world due to stupidity, lack of safety features,
> poorly designed roads and traffic signals, or just too much speed. Cars in
> general are very dangerous, yet we don't shut down the highways. You have
> obviously not been a fan of Forumla One for very long to make such
> unintelligent statements like this,

> "I LOVE F1, but if the drivers were dying I'd say close it down right
now."

> You think 1994 was a banner year for Formula 1? There was even a lawsuit
on
> that! You don't think that the FIA, FOCA, and the track owners made knee
> jerk reactions after the death of Senna? Yes, they made changes but it was
> AFTER the tragedy. The past 9 months have been very bad for Nascar.
However,
> do you know how many Winston Cup Nascar drivers had died before the year
> 2000? As far as Winston Cup in the 90's, I believe there were two: Neil
> Bonnet's death in 1994(Daytona) and  J.D. McDuffie in 1991(Watkins Glen).
> This is the same number of drivers that died in F1 in the 90's. If you add
> in the Busch Series, Craftsman Trucks, and ARCA, then I think there were 3
> more(John Nemechek , Rodney Orr , Clifford Allison ). Formula 1 had two
> deaths in the 90's(Senna and Ratzenberger ). I do not know how many deaths
> could be attributed to the Formula One minor leagues such as  Formula
3000.
> CART/IRL had 5 deaths in the 90's! Let's shut down the Indianapolis 500 as
> well!!(2 deaths in the 90's).  How many deaths were there in Drag Racing,
> Rallying, Touring Cars, LeMans/Sportscars, Sprint cars, Cycling etc.? I
> don't know myself, but I will bet that there were deaths in every one of
> these series. You must not know your history well to believe that F1 is
all
> about safety. Please read this article about the death of Ronnie Peterson
at
> Monza in 1978. http://www.atlasf1.com/2000/ita/preview/peterson.html
> Another dark day in racing, Mario Andretti finally wins the F1
championship
> but loses friend and teammate Peterson. The lack of safety and poor
> respsonse from the safety teams here was appalling. This was nothing new
in
> F1, and Jackie Sewart and many other drivers had been fighting for safer
> tracks, cars, and rules for years.

> To say that the F1 drivers of the sixties were not brave, heroic, or
"real"
> drivers because "they raced knowing death was a real possibility" is just
> ludicrous!!! According to you, all race drivers from the past who helped
to
> build this sport to what it is today  "were simply foolish people who
didn't
> value their lives very much." What kind of crap is this?!?!? I guess Juan
> Manuel Fangio, Mario Andretti, AJ Foyt, Richard Petty, Jackie Stewart,
> Emmerson Fittapaldi, Al Unser, Bobby Unser, Alberto Ascari, Aryton Senna,
> Alain Prost, Graham Hill, David Pearson, Gilles Villeneuve, Jody
Scheckter,
> Dan Gurney, Jochen Rindt , Stirling Moss , Ray Harroun, Wilbur Shaw, Bill
> Vukovich, Rick Mears, Jim Clark, Johnny Rutherford, Nigel Mansell, Niki
> Lauda, and Nelson Piquet were all simply foolish people! Not pioneers of
> motorsport? Without these heroes(and hundreds more that I failed to
mention)
> we would have no motorsport! Your lack of reasoning here boggles the
mind!!!

> Using this logic, the heroes of the NASA space program,  war veterans,
> firemen, poilcemen, emergency rescue workers, and the people who risk
their
> lives in coal mines are all "simply foolish people".

> Straight from Atlas F1(www.atlasf1.com), here is the list of drivers
killed
> in Formula One since 1950:

> "Among drivers who participated seriously in Formula One since the modern
> championship began in 1950, the list of those killed in racing cars looks
> something like this: Luigi Fagioli was killed in 1952. Felice Bonetto in
> 1953. Onofre Marimon in 1954. Alberto Ascari in 1955. Louis Rosier in
1956.
> Eugenio Castellotti and Alfonso de Portago in 1957. Peter Collins, Luigi
> Musso and Stewart Lewis-Evans in 1958. Jean Behra in 1959. Harry Schell in
> 1960. Wolfgang von Trips in 1961. Ricardo Rodriguez in 1962. Carel De
> Beaufort in 1964. Lorenzo Bandini in 1967. Jimmy Clark and Mike Spence in
> 1968. Lucien Bianchi and Gerhard Mitter in 1969. Jochen Rindt, Bruce
McLaren
> and Piers Courage in 1970. Jo Siffert and Pedro Rodriguez in 1971. Jo
> Bonnier in 1972. Francois Cevert in 1973. Peter Revson and Silvio Moser in
> 1974. Mark Donahue in 1975. Tom Pryce in 1977. Ronnie Peterson in 1978.
> Patrick Depailler in 1980. Gilles Villeneuve and Ricardo Paletti in 1982.
> Elio de Angelis in 1986. Aryton Senna in 1994. Roland Ratzenberger in
1994.
> Nicki Lauda was maimed in a fiery crash, Clay Regazzoni was crippled for
> life, Moss suffered an accident that ended his career and nearly his
life."

> Formula One absolutely does not have a "tremendous safety record". Based
on
> your logic, Formula One should not even exist today because it would have
> been shut down in the 1950s' when the average was at least one death per
> year!

> To stereotype Nascar as all "about beer and crashes" is to show your lack
of
> knowledge of motorsport in general. I've attended all forms of motorsport
> and was taught to appreciate them all at an early age. To say one form is
> superior is just showing uninformed prejudice. We are sad when someone
dies,
> because death itself is tragic no matter the cause. People pay tribute
> because they care and they feel loss. Death and/or the chance of death or
> serious injury is part of all forms of auto racing. Based on your
statements
> you may want to look into relocating to Switzerland where all forms of
> motorsport have been banned since 1955.

> I wish all forms of auto racing were 100% safe. If they were, we would
> probably all compete in them, instead of playing around with our computers
> and "toy" steering wheels thinking we are all high and mighty. However, it
> is not a safe sport. Neither are sports like mountain climbing, sky
diving,
> kayaking, surfing, skiiing, X-treme sports, and to some extent hockey,
rugby
> and football.(just to name a few). I sincerely hope that Nascar gets its
act
> togther and makes some serious changes, but your arguements and
accusations
> are just plain wrong.

> Normally, I would have just ignored a post like this assuming it was a
> troll. However, I have been around r.a.s for a long time, and I believe I
> have seen you make quality contributions to this group. I hope this was
just
> a misstep on your part brought on by the difficult feelings we as racing
> fans always experience after the death of one of our heroes. It makes you
> feel guilty, it makes you feel sad, it makes you feel angry, it makes you
> feel like giving it up. I do not know what the answer is for you, but I
> honestly feel you owe this group an apology if you want to maintain any
> respect here. You are entitled to your opinion, true, but I am trying to
> give you the benefit of the doubt. If this is in fact your honest opinion,
> then I will use your own words to sum it up, "Pathetic".

> Don Chapman

> David G Fisher <dav...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:DPHk6.464$Bf3.85907@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
> > I find it really ridiculous that people are acting as if the death of a
> > NASCAR driver is a tragedy.

> > You knew it was going to happen, and so did I. It happens almost every
> year.
> > Three times last year alone. When you support an activity that you know
> will
> > result in the death of someone, then it's not a tragedy. It's simply
> > disgusting.

> | Hey... that's not so bad. If the beer were any good, that is. <g>
> |
> | Jan.
> | =---
> | Don Chapman wrote...
> | > <snip>
> | > Yep, stupid American general public, we have nothing to watch
> | > but Nascar and nothing to drink but beer.
> | >
> | >
> |
> |

> All the drivers knew there would be plenty of carnage going into Daytona
as
> well with there special rules.  It would also make some sense if Nascar
> requited those HANS neck devices because of the higher chances of
incidents.

> You know they used to play footbal with leather helmets too.  Perhasp it's
> time for a change.

> > > some funny stuff

> > That's about the most BS I've read in awhile. A couple of things, you
> can't
> > compare F1 and Nascar. Two totally different types of racing. Race
marshal
> > Paolo Ghislimberti was killed by flying debris after a collision in the
> > Italian Grand Prix at Monza last year. And your comment about 60's
drivers
> > being foolish is just unbelievable. Nascar is not about beer and
crashes.
> > It's about tight racing and going the full distance. F1 is starting to
> look
> > like a parade lap and the only passing done in the pits. I like all
forms
> of
> > racing, F1, Nascar, Cart, even IRL. I think you should of put a little
> more
> > thought in your post.
> > Anthony Brooks

> Four dead in NASCAR in the past season + one race this year.

> NASCAR is a badly run auto racing series. F1 is light years ahead of it.

> David G Fisher

> > > If F1 can have such a tremendous safety record, then there is NO
excuse
> > for
> > > NASCAR's terrible one. It's THAT simple.

> > Uh LOL sure David everybody is entitled to his opinion, whatever
rationale
> > it is.. ;)

> > Did you scream that babbling in 1994 when Senna and Ratzenberger both
died
> > the same weekend, when Wendlinger got a severe crash at Monaco, when
> > Barrichello had a death-defying crash from the lack of safety in Imola's
> > track configuration, etc..?

> > Racing is dangerous.  People have, are and will continue to be killed or
> > severely injured.  Deal with it, or stop watching it.

> > --
> > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > -- May the Downforce be with you...
> > -- http://www.ymenard.com/
> > -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise
how
> > hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.