rec.autos.simulators

        But at that point, their lives weren't theirs to give.  They would die
anyway.  They just were able to choose death on their own terms (something
that many never get a chance for.)

                                        -Tim

        The problem is that this is, basically, new.  Before, when a plane
would be hijacked, it would be aimed toward some non-extradition country.  In
that situation, trying to overpower the terrorists might very well lead to the
plane going down rather than to, say Cuba.  That would mean unneeded death.

        But the game being played last Tuesday was different.  For the first
three planes, playing by the old rules...well, we saw the result.  The
passengers on the 4th plane were able to learn of what happened to the other
three.  They knew the rules were different, and took the exactly appropriate
response.

                                        -Tim

        How would any other country know what happened?  Most of the US didn't
know what happened.

                                        -Tim

        $1.2 billion in millitary aid per year.  A nation does not have to
have troops on the ground to be involved in a war.

                                        -Tim

        Only as portrayed by American propaganda as being dishonerable.

        It was a good military action.  There was a delayed declaration, but
it's also pretty clear that we knew something was coming.  The action was a
bit ineffective in that none of our carriers was at Pearl Harbor, and the time
of battleships had already passed.

        Though war against Japan was inevitable.  Japan was an oppressive
colonialist power looking to spread its hegemony across the western pacific
and eastern asia.  We were an oppressive colonialist power that had already
spread its hegemony across the pacific.  Two big powers, one space, we were
bumping against each other.  Japan realized that beating us would be tough,
and tried to start the war on its own terms--as noted, however, the attack on
Pearl Harbor really was ineffective in that it did nothing to our carrier
force.

                                        -Tim

        I'm assuming you are talking about our carriers.  One really has to
wonder if sheer luck was involved.

                                        -Tim

Luck,  I think Roosevelt at the time knew Japan would attack.  He was
baiting them for a while.  Stopping shipments of s***metal, *** and
oil.  He was being asked for help by the British, and the USA as a whole was
not prepared for another war WW I had made many USA citizens isolationists
and they did not want a part of another war in Europe.  The Attack on Pearl
Harbor changed all that.  USA was transformed from being isolationist and
not wanting to engage in another war to being united and wanting to scuttle
all those who attacked us or aligned with them.  Roosevelt needed Pearl to
happen so the people would want to go to war.

Dave

Tim,

Other then the fact we know the people on the plane decided to attempt to
retake control of it we do not know anything else.  Whether or not their
work was successful or not.  We do not they stopped the plane from reaching
its target.  I think that is something to be very proud of them for.  I do
not think they decided how they were going to die, I think they decided how
they were going to live.  Retaking the plane was their only chance at live
and instead of sitting in fear, they acted.

Dave

You should get both sides if you look at more than one page that comes up in
the search, which is what I meant that people should do.

- Robert

        Not true.  We know that they had discussions with those on the ground.
 We know that they knew that they would die if they sat still.

        Chose how to die, chose how to live.  The two go hand in hand.  I'd
describe the acts as "stoic heroism" myself.

                                        -Tim

        Which is why noting that our most powerful assets were not there to be
attacked might not be a matter of luck.  If we look at the various reports
that our intelligence learned about it early and Roosevelt sat on the info as
possibly being correct, we can rule out luck.

                                        -Tim

Well at least we agree on one thing.

Dave

Dave

More precisely, we funded them if their mission was to defeat Communism.

--
Cheers,                                  www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every                        Seattle, WA

We want the perpetrators.  Anyone who stands in our way, dies.
No matter how few, or how many.  If it is 20, it is 20.
If it is 100,000, it is 100,000.

From past history, taking hostages is not effective in getting what they
want... the demands are rarely, if ever, met.  Thus, there's little reason to
believe anymore that someone taking over a jet in free countries like the US
has anything more in mind than WTC-style terrorism.