rec.autos.simulators

To my American friends

Isaac K

To my American friends

by Isaac K » Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:07:39


>In the swirling mists of history, on 13 Sep 2001 11:52:13 -0700,


>>>In the swirling mists of history, on Thu, 13 Sep 2001 04:13:55 GMT,

>>>>It is going to be messy. No doubt about it. But the Americans got themselves
>>>>into this mess by thinking that a few bombs would scare these people away.
>>>>It's a war now and it has to be faced.
>>No, we got ourselves into this mess by thinking any other response
>>was unthinkable.  And before Tuesday, it was.
>Excuse me. Bruce Rennie wrote that comment, not me. You are replying
>to the wrong poster.

I was replying to both of you.  I kept the full attributions in
my quotes.  It was clear to anyone familiar with de facto
USENET quoting standards who said what.

Perhaps "unthinkable" is not precisely the correct word.  I
think my essential meaning is clear, even if I can't think of
exactly the right words to express it.

Isaac Kuo

Quatori

To my American friends

by Quatori » Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:08:15

In the swirling mists of history, on Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:38:58 GMT,


>And, just so we're totally clear, that's not what I was implying. :)

I know, Bruce.

-Quatoria
--
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that
faith does not prove anything.
       -- Friederich Nietzsche
Shameless Plug - Visit www.hardnews.org for even more of Q's unpaid ranting.

Brandon J. Van Ever

To my American friends

by Brandon J. Van Ever » Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:23:39


Goodbye, Azzy.

--
Cheers,                         www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

People who make personal attacks are useless.
I killfile them no matter who they are insulting.

Brandon J. Van Ever

To my American friends

by Brandon J. Van Ever » Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:27:48


It's not terrifying, any more than living in a nation of grandmas and pick
up truck yahoos is terrifying.  Grandma would have us nuke "all of them,"
whoever "all of them" is.  Unsurprisingly, grandma and the pickup truck
yahoos aren't in charge.

--
Cheers,                         www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

People who make personal attacks are useless.
I killfile them no matter who they are insulting.

Kevin F. Gavit

To my American friends

by Kevin F. Gavit » Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:12:34



> (John Bodin) writes:

>>In comparison, the Japanese in WW II were honorable enemies when they
>>attacked Pearl Harbor -- they attacked military targets wearing the
>>colors of the country of Japan proudly on their *** planes and and
>>on their uniforms.  Even so, the Japanese did not declare war prior to
>>the attackon Pearl Harbor.  The act itself was a declaration of war,
>>though, and they knew it going in.

> The formal declaration of war was SUPPOSED to be delivered about an hour
> before
> the first bombs fell.  A bureaucratic screwup delayed the documents.

> Eldred

Not to mention the fact that they had been telling us we would be going to
war for *20 years.*

One might well ask whether America had formally declared war before it
sailed its naval flotilla into the soverign waters of Nagasaki harbor, and
with guns loaded and aimed at shore informed Japan, which had been at peace
internally and externally for nearly 300 years with a formal declaration of
neutrality, that its neutrality would no longer be respected?

History started before Pearl Harbor. The Japanese did not just wake up one
morning and get a "bee in their bonnet" to attack the US.

The first act of war was perpetrated, without warning or declaration, by
the US, and in total violation of international law.

One might also note, if one were a cynic, that no formal declartion of war
was ever made against North Korea, North Vietnam, Cuba ( which for some
reason we still formally class as an enemy), Panama or Nicaragua.

If we're going to ***, we shouldn't then practice what we preach against.

Pearl Harbor was an act of war between one nation and another. Both
countries knew in advance there would be war. The nation attacked had
previously violated the formally declared neutral waters of the attacker.
The attacker used the legal military forces of that nation to attack a
military target of the other. In other words, international business as
usual. Nothing to see here, move along.

Ok, I'm writing this from the safty of decades and thousands of miles. So
let me interject the words of a survivor of the Arizona when asked his
opinion of the "sneak attack."

"Militarily it was brilliant. I don't hold anything against them for that.
Perhaps it was because growing up in the south my grandaddy always told me
that when you attack you "do it in greater numbers, and when they arn't
looking." What did you expect them to do, call up say they were coming?"

The attack on the WTC was a private act, by a private orginization, for
private reasons. They have perpetrated previous attacks against us, and
formally declared their intent to perpetrate others. It was an attack
against a purely civil target for purely political reasons.

There is absolutely NO similarity between this attack and Pearl Harbor,
except for the shock of those who had blinded their eyes in advance so as
to be able to claim they never saw it coming.

It was a dasterdly deed by dasterdly people, but not only predicted in
theory by hundreds, whom those now claiming to be shocked and stunned told
to shut up and go away, but predicted in theory * by the perpetrators
themselves.*

Do people remember that is the SECOND attack? Likely by the SAME people?

What more "declaration of war" do you need than a bomb in the target?

For those who might be wondering and think it might be relevant, I am
posting this from upstate NY. I have one cousin "MIA," and was at least
passingly aquainted with two people on the planes, and possibly a third. I
have not had the luxury of time and distance this time, at least with
regards to friends and family.

KFG

George Majo

To my American friends

by George Majo » Sun, 16 Sep 2001 01:36:42

Bring to justice wont do crap, Bringing to justice will scare them? You got
another thing coming if you think that. Bring them to justice, will that be
said next time? Next time it could be millions of people not thousands. My
point is the actions of all must be terminated not just bringing to justice
a few but all of them,

--
Free Email!
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> good post Jason

> Achim






> > > > Innoents were slaughtered. That's all that this attack really meant.
> > ***
> > > > nationalism.

> > > Some of the victims are probably survivors of the original Trade
Center
> > > bombing, too.

> > No anger.  No fear.  No bickering among ourselves.  No hatred.  No witch
> > hunts.  No paranoia.

> > This is what they want.

> > Find them.  Try them, fairly.  Punish them, justly.

> > Let the heavens stand, though justice be done.

> > --
> > Jason Shankel
> > Maxis/EA
> > s h a n k e l "at" p o b o x . c o m
> > Play rich, creamery OpenTrek at www.pobox.com/~shankel/opentrek.html
> > "This is very dangerous -- look how large those *** ***es are."
> > Chief Yim Symany, Phnom Pehn Police Dept.

Joe Ottoso

To my American friends

by Joe Ottoso » Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:27:27


1) That's insane
2) It's impossible

Brandon J. Van Ever

To my American friends

by Brandon J. Van Ever » Sat, 15 Sep 2001 18:31:43


How many is "all?"  All terrorists who committed this act, or all terroists
everywhere?  The latter is not realistic.  Even within our own borders we
plea bargain to bring the major sources of crime to justice.  We don't do it
because we want to.  We do it because getting something done is better than
getting nothing done.

--
Cheers,                                  www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every                        Seattle, WA

We want the perpetrators.  Anyone who stands in our way, dies.
No matter how few, or how many.  If it is 20, it is 20.
If it is 100,000, it is 100,000.

Jef

To my American friends

by Jef » Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:21:48


>Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like we looked hard enough. We're
>spiraling down into racism and vengeance against our own god damn
>people. Americans are acting like terrorists against *other
>Americans*. I am sick with it.

>-Quatoria

You are dealing with human beings, after all... even the terrorists were once
human.
Henr

To my American friends

by Henr » Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:33:59



>> What I can see, is that bombing WTC/Pentagon is a modern Pearl
>> Harbor.  But who's the enemy?

> Any person or country that supports Terrorism.  Bin Laden should be
> under arrest already...Arafat for failing to control the *** in
> the West Bank should be held as a conspirator.  Countries such as
> Afganistan and Pakistan for supporting Bin Laden should be militarily
> crippled.  Syria for letting the Bekaa valley be a haven for terroism.
> Iraq for funneling funds to terrorsists.  The list could go on and on...
> Cut off Terrorism at the head, at the feet and everywhere in between.

Oh, please.  Learn a lesson from history, will you?

Keep sticking your nose where it doesn't belong and, someday, it's going
to get punched and broken.  That day was Tuesday.

It was perfectly fine for guys like Osama to fight the Russians in
Afganistan with dubious tactics in the 80s.  It was so acceptable that
the US government even helped fund the
terrorists^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hfreedom fighters.  It was so palatable, in
fact, that Hollywood even made Rambo III which starred Sylvester
Stallone as the "All-American Hero" fighting the good fight and helping
the terrorists^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hfreedom fighters give the Russians a
***y nose.

Far from being complicated, as certain misguided souls here seem to
think, Osama's demand was simple:  "Get the *** out of the Middle-East!"

Eventually, the Russians pulled out, and then there was peace on that
front.  But as soon as the Russians left, you Americans rock up for the
Gulf War, bomb some hospitals and schools, and establish a permanent
presence in the region (Saudi Arabia in particular).

"Get the *** out!" comes the warning.  "You don't belong here!"

You Americans ignore it.

"Get the *** out!" comes the warning again.  Embassies get bombed.

You Americans ignore it.

"Get the *** out!" comes the warning yet again.  The USS Cole has
airconditioning installed.

You Americans ignore it.

"Get the *** out!" comes the warning for the _fourth_ time.  Tuesday.

When are you people going to wake up, stop ***ing with other countries,
and mind your own ***y business?  That's _all_ you've got to do to end
this.  It's _that_ simple.

But nooooo.  You write an $80bn cheque to your "missing link" president
and demand revenge.  Revenge!?!  You're the _cause_ of the whole
problem, and you want revenge!

Un-***ing-believable.

America is a beautiful country, and every American I've ever met has
been friendly, generous, and endowed with a spirit I've seen nowhere
else.  But collectively, you have the IQ of a mosquito, are just as
parasitic, and as irritating as hell.

Stop the madness.  Pressure your government to abort the "war" that you
are about to start.  Pull _out_ of the Middle-East.

You've seen what a few _dozen_ dedicated individuals are capable of
doing to your country with a modicum of patience and skill.  Start a
war, and you'll find out what a few _thousand_ dedicated individuals can
do.  These individuals have already accepted death.  You cannot even
begin to comprehend what such a force is capable of.

Henry.

Brandon J. Van Ever

To my American friends

by Brandon J. Van Ever » Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:54:36


Well, you'll have to dredge up the history books and tell us if bin Laden
had a habit of going after Soviet civilians 5000 a pop while fighting in
Afghanistan.  Last I knew, the Soviets lived in the USSR.  And why so quick
to assume it's bin Laden?  We can wait a few weeks more to be sure.

I suppose Hollywood portrayed Rambo blowing up civilians 5000 a pop.

Yep, those military targets, the hospitals and schools.  I'm sure we
deliberately targetted piles of 'em.  "We," since it was a UN effort.  Go
blame it on the Belgians, they'll be big about it.  Hey, ask a Kuwaiti how
nice the Iraqis are!

No we didn't.  We bombed back.  The message was clear enough from us:  "We
don't negotiate with terrorists."

Probably after we've occupied a guilty country and turned it into a proper
democracy.  We didn't have that kind of m***mandate with Iraq, but we do
this time.  If there's a war then it's going to be a ground war and a regime
is going to be destroyed.

Heh, well, as much as I'd like the USA out of the Middle East, now I'm more
in a mood to go over there and put a terrorist in a crosshair.  So's the
country.  I think it's more likely that the Middle East is going to start to
look like us.

Good question.  I seem to recall demands for justice, not revenge.  Although
the USA has been using the word "retalliate" which I don't like the
connotation of.  I don't have to like it though: a bombing is retalliation,
but so is an invasion.  A bombing is revenge.  Capturing/killing the
terrorists is justice.

Riiiight, all those poor little Kuwaitis we keep stepping all over.  You're
going to have to do better than that to get people to take you seriously.

Right, and you have a cuckoo bird's since of national responsibility.  Iraq
invades Kuwait, the UN kicks Iraq's ass, and this is why it's all the USA's
fault!

Tell that to the 5000 dead.  You do realize that a terrorist act of this
magnitude has never been committed before, right?

Sure we can.  Ever been on the business end of an ICBM?  There is a scale
that a guilty nation cannot take this to, if it wants to live.  If there is
a 2nd bombing, it will trigger a WW III level of mobilization from the USA.

And what you the foolish terrorist apologist have failed to realize, is that
people in the USA are so righteously angry, that they have also accepted
death.  If the war goes on long enough, I will be personally coming over to
kill terrorists.  We will fight for the principle that no barbarian may kill
5000 civilians in peacetime.  We will fight now rather than later, lest
terrorists grow stronger and use nuclear and biological devices in the
future.  If they have and are willing to use these devices already then so
be it, it is better to fight now than wait for them to get more.  No future
generation of humanity shall suffer the "skyscraper tax", "suitcase tax", or
"air tax."  There's almost nothing I'd fight a war for, but even I would
fight to keep insane members of our species from killing the rest of us with
technologies that make them far too dangerous.

--
Cheers,                                  www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every                        Seattle, WA

We want the perpetrators.  Anyone who stands in our way, dies.
No matter how few, or how many.  If it is 20, it is 20.
If it is 100,000, it is 100,000.

Foxtro

To my American friends

by Foxtro » Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:58:41

"The root problem is that the US is hated throughout the Arab world and in
many other developing countries for the arrogance of its power. As shown by
its rejection of the International Criminal Court, refusal to endorse the
Kyoto Treaty and withdrawal from United Nations racism conference, it seeks
to impose norms on weaker countries while seeing itself as above
international regulation. Both isolationist and controlling, it is ignorant
of the world it rules and oblivious to the suffering caused by many of its
actions. An example is its 11-year blockade of Iraq, which has left dictator
Saddam Hussein unscathed but caused untold misery to ordinary Iraqis,
including the deaths of an estimated 500 000 children. The Lockerbie plane
bombing was a terrible act, but it is worth remembering that it was preceded
by the US downing of an Iranian passenger liner in the Gulf, for which
George Bush's administration could hardly bring itself to apologise."

(The source will not be identified, since too many people concentrate on the
source and not its message.)

skye

To my American friends

by skye » Tue, 18 Sep 2001 01:00:52


That "force" you speak of isn't all that imposing, actually. What it takes
them years to plan and carry out are things the US (if it wanted to) could
do in a day. And for retards like yourself to insinuate that the people in
the WTC had this coming only speaks to your idiocy. America has a pretty
clear history of imposing its will and banding together when its pushed. God
bless the souls of anyone that gets in the way now.

skye

To my American friends

by skye » Tue, 18 Sep 2001 01:02:23


They hate us because we actually have made a better mouse trap. They
continue to mill about in the deserts of the world like a bunch of morons.

DAVID J ROBINSO

To my American friends

by DAVID J ROBINSO » Tue, 18 Sep 2001 01:22:45

Well fromt he information I have the Arab world or more directly bin Ladin's
hatred of the USA comes from the fact he feels the Saudi governement is a
puppet of the USA and they allowed the USA to place troops on the Sacred
Home of Islam.  All the Terrorism from him started after he was unable to
get his governement to move on defending themselves with no help from
outsiders and nonMuslims.  He has been consistant in his attacks and his
reasoning.  His feeling about Iraq, were that they could take care of the
aggressors since they had ran Russia the Red Atheist Devil out of
Afganistan.

bin Ladin is also upset that Saudi Governement is squandering the resources
of his sacred home of Islam.  Saudi is in debt and is not looking towards
its future in his opinion and he feels its the USA fault. Additionally he
did not feel the USA or the Western World was there to help make sure Saudi
was safe, they were there to make sure the oil supply to the West was safe.

bin Ladin seeks a pure Muslim State where he and other Muslims can live and
prosper.  He feels any involvement by someone who is not Muslim only
bastardizes that state.

Finally Saddam was left due to the Group of Countries that were involved the
the Iraq war did not have the objective of deposing him or terminating him.
His home governement was part of that Group.

Our refusal of signing the Kyoto treaty does not have anything to do with
what bin Ladin is doing.  The withdrawl from the racism conference also does
not have anything to do with what bin Ladin is doing.  The man started his
war long before these things happened, and his desire to have a pure Muslim
state demonstrates he care nothing for the elmination of racism the
presecution of anyone who is not Muslim.

Finally please do not read in your problems with the USA with the current
issues bin Ladin has with the USA.  I was short sighted and was doing the
same thing before becoming a bit more educated on his reasoning.

Dave
Not in the least bit concerned with being identied.



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