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Eldred
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with experience...
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In comparison, the Japanese in WW II were honorable enemies when they
attacked Pearl Harbor -- they attacked military targets wearing the
colors of the country of Japan proudly on their *** planes and and
on their uniforms.  Even so, the Japanese did not declare war prior to
the attackon Pearl Harbor.  The act itself was a declaration of war,
though, and they knew it going in.

An even more frightening thought than the prospect of international
terrorism.  I shudder at the thought.

-- JB  

Agreed.  I note that the airplane came in from east to west.  If this
were the work of a Tim McVeigh type, the plane would probably have
veered north up the East River and slammed into the UN.
--

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Yes, but wasn't it a mistake? IIRC, the intent was to deliver the
declaration of war just before the attack happened, but there was a
misunderstanding that delayed this.

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Achim

I think most people will pay the extra 20 or 30 bucks a ticket it will
cost to have a high-level secuirty gaurd on every flight.

AIUI, there just havent been a lot of these things happening in the
past 20 years.  Its not like we hear about an attempt every month that
fails.  Maybe theyre just not being reported, or maybe most of the
time theyre successful, but dont come around that often.  Someone
probably knows figures on this, but they arent telling the US citizens
in any easily reachable manner.

-Geoff Howland
http://www.lupinegames.com/

This is not correct.  Israel IS willing to share the Holy Land,
and they ARE sharing Jerusalem.  There are specificly Christian
and Islamic sections in Jerusalem as well as the Jewish sections.
Except when there are immediate security concerns, more or less
anyone is allowed in Jerusalem--regardless of ethnicity or
religious faith.

The more open Muslim countries also have a great deal of
religious freedom, and if they happenned to control Jerusalem
it's entirely conceivable they'd set up a similar compromise.

Anyway, back to the original topic--if it's found that Bin Laden
is responsible, I am in favor of a ground invasion of Afghanistan.
Frankly, our chances of actually catching him specifically are
slim.  But it's important that we ensure he and anyone else like
him in the future have no safe haven anywhere in the world.

That means demonstrating the ability and will to remove any regime
which harbors him and his ilk.  Bombs alone won't do it.  It hasn't
worked in Iraq.  It hasn't worked anywhere, anytime.  A ground
invasion or at LEAST the threat of a ground invasion is necessary
to remove an enemy regime.

Of course, I'm well aware of what heppenned to the Soviet Union,
despite the fact that they were at the height of their military
power.  But they lost in Afghanistan for the same reason we lost
in Vietnam--loss of support back home.  This is different.
Pearl Harbor galvanized our nation into war overseas into an
endless conflict costing millions of lives.  This act was far
more atrocious in every way.

Many of us are demanding swift and decisive action.  Unless we get
phenominally lucky and Afghanistan hands over Bin Laden to us, I
don't think that's possible.  A swift action?  Yes.  A swift and
DECISIVE action?  No.

I'm afraid the only decisive response will be a ground invasion
costing us many more lives than have already been lost.  It's a
war we can't win with bigger bombs and missiles.  It can only
be won with ***.  As I see it, it's either our volunteer
soldiers or our civilians who will pay the highest price.

Isaac Kuo

Paul
--

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"Even if you can deceive people about a product through misleading statements,
sooner or later the product will speak for itself." - Hajime Karatsu

It is perhaps Japan's fault for not communicating their
declaration of war in a more reliable manner.  In any case,
it would not have made sense for them to wait too long after
sending the message before attacking because their attack
depended upon surprise to succeed.  After the initial
surprise of the Japanese attack, U.S. defenses at Pearl
Harbor DID stiffen up against the later waves.  If the
Japanese had waited too long, they might have faced stiff
resistance from the start--and much worse, the ships they
were attacking might have been manned and underway.

Of course, by sheer luck all of the most important target
ships WERE underway at the time, and they survived the
attack anyway.

Isaac Kuo

How can it be worse than a world where every 2 years 10,000 of us die for no
particularly good reason?  How long do we wait for it to become worse, for
the weapons to get bigger and the body counts higher?  A terrorist who is
willing to kill 10,000 people and himself for his cause is beyond merely
using the media.  That could have been done with 1 plane over an ocean
somewhere, it has always grabbed the headlines and always made people
nervous.  Such a terrorist has no sense of scale, will one day nuke us if
left in power.  We've had about 10 years of former Soviet fissile materials
roaming around, how much longer should we be waiting to deal with this
problem?

--
Cheers,                         www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

People who make personal attacks are useless.
I killfile them no matter who they are insulting.

Paul
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"Even if you can deceive people about a product through misleading statements,
sooner or later the product will speak for itself." - Hajime Karatsu

I'm not interested in atrocities against Muslims, I'm interested in
destroying whatever regime was responsible for this.  Leaving all the
civilians alone is fine by me, I don't want their *** any more than I want
another plane dropped on an American skyscraper.  That said, I don't *care*
if they yell "atrocity!" "fascist!" as we implement such a plan.  People
*** and moan all the time about any thing they don't like as being an
atrocity or fascist.

But regarding extremism, you have a point.  If we undertake this thing, then
we as a nation had better be willing to undertake it all the way.  United to
destroy the enemy.  Otherwise, the war would drag out, and more and more
Muslims would be fanaticized by it.  What you really want is to destroy the
regime, occupy the country, and rebuild it.  Turn it into a proper
democracy.

And the alternative is for terrorists to continue to embolden themselves.
Any action we undertake is going to "provoke" them, Robert.  If we
retalliate in any way, that will be an excuse for them to drop another plane
out of the sky.  If we do nothing, they'll do it again sometime.  If we were
able to read all of their minds and simultaneously acquiesce to all of their
demands, maybe that would end terrorism, or maybe they'd want to keep going
since terror is where their power basis flows from.  But that's impossible
because the demands are perceptual and people can't be pleased.  The reality
is, we have an enemy that isn't going away.  It is time to decide how to
fight this enemy.

--
Cheers,                         www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

People who make personal attacks are useless.
I killfile them no matter who they are insulting.

In a case like Israel vs. Palestine, neither are.  Rather, they are locked
in historical dysfunctionality.  Their alternatives are to make peace or
kill each other.  If they kill each other, eventually one side will win, and
it will be over.  It won't be "right" but it will be over.  That is why I'm
non-interventionist about places like Palestine, Northern Ireland, the
Balkans, the Kashmir, Chechnyia, etc.  I know these ***s are locked in a
deathgrip, and they have to decide for themselves whether it's peace or war.
American *** should be preserved for spilling in American wars.

--
Cheers,                         www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

People who make personal attacks are useless.
I killfile them no matter who they are insulting.