rec.autos.simulators

by **Azzy** » Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:04:55

> > >I have incredible sadness, because I cannot explain to the people who
> > >crashed the planes why what they did was wrong. They wouldn't believe me
> > >that they're simply dead, that all the people they killed are dead, that
> > >nobody went to Allah or Heaven or any such thing.

> > Says you. I, and a lot of your "fellow Americans" would disagree with you.

> > Mattias

> True, but you have no basis for this disagreement. People believe in an
> afterlife despite a complete lack of supporting evidence. Why is it that we
> accept a lower standard of proof for the most profound existential question
> than we do for the most mundane scientific theory?

> I understand that religion gives people comfort, and I am loathe to deny
> them that comfort. But it is an illusion. God had nothing to do with this
> mess, nor will He be around to help us clean it up. This one has "humanity"
> written all over it. We have no one else to blame nor anyone else to turn
> to.

That you two would stoop to such a discussion I quite frankly find
extremely distasteful. Thousands have died. Innocence has died.

by **Arkla** » Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:18:19

no offense i menat by this reply, i'm sorry if any is taken.

agreed. if you would like to debate religion, please, at least keep it
tasteful. many people are leaning on anything they can find, such as
religion, for support right now. while i know your intnet is to bring them
to reality, doing so might cause them to fall, and fall far. all i'm saying
is... be a little more tasteful.

> > > >I have incredible sadness, because I cannot explain to the people who
> > > >crashed the planes why what they did was wrong. They wouldn't
believe me
> > > >that they're simply dead, that all the people they killed are dead,
that
> > > >nobody went to Allah or Heaven or any such thing.

> > > Says you. I, and a lot of your "fellow Americans" would disagree with
you.

> > > Mattias

> > True, but you have no basis for this disagreement. People believe in an
> > afterlife despite a complete lack of supporting evidence. Why is it
that we
> > accept a lower standard of proof for the most profound existential
question
> > than we do for the most mundane scientific theory?

> > I understand that religion gives people comfort, and I am loathe to deny
> > them that comfort. But it is an illusion. God had nothing to do with
this
> > mess, nor will He be around to help us clean it up. This one has
"humanity"
> > written all over it. We have no one else to blame nor anyone else to
turn
> > to.

> That you two would stoop to such a discussion I quite frankly find
> extremely distasteful. Thousands have died. Innocence has died.

by **Jason Shanke** » Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:20:06

I apologize if my sentiments, or the subject of discussion itself, offends
you.

I certainly do not intend to distract attention from the matter at hand. My
desire was only to lend voice to those among us who find as much comfort in
the belief that humanity is the master of its own fate as others find in
religion.

--
Jason Shankel
Maxis/EA
s h a n k e l "at" p o b o x . c o m
Play rich, creamery OpenTrek at www.pobox.com/~shankel/opentrek.html

by **Jan Verschuere** » Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:22:57

Oh please... who do you think "made" Bush junior president?

Remember, "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" is a very common
policy.

Jan.
=---
"Brandon J. Van Every" wrote...

by **Mattias Hembru** » Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:20:32

>> >I have incredible sadness, because I cannot explain to the people who
>> >crashed the planes why what they did was wrong. They wouldn't believe me
>> >that they're simply dead, that all the people they killed are dead, that
>> >nobody went to Allah or Heaven or any such thing.

>> Says you. I, and a lot of your "fellow Americans" would disagree with you.

>> Mattias

>True, but you have no basis for this disagreement.

And you have basis for yours? I suppose you've been dead a few times, then? :-)

Most people believe in things that science cannot explain. Love. Friendship.
The beauty of a sunset.

As I understand it, post-modernism is the belief that science does not have
all the answers, despite what we were told for years.. And it's what's
replacing modernism, not being replaced by something else, or so I'm told.

I'm not disagreeing that humanity is to blame for the disaster. However,
some interesting stories have already surfaced from yesterday, and others
will no doubt follow: a christian who had NEVER been late for work in his
career of over 20 years (and was well known in his office as someone who was
never late) and worked in the WTC just "happened" to pick Tuesday as the
first day of his career to be late? Another christian (on his way to the
WTC) who only turns on his cell phone to MAKE phone calls had a feeling he
should turn it on on Tuesday while driving to work. His wife called him,
they got talking, he was delayed.

I respect your views, and do NOT want this to degenerate into another
flamewar, especially in light of the tragedy.

I respectfully disagree with your beliefs. Yet, I also respect your right to
hold those views.

Mattias

by **Azzy** » Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:49:12

> >> >I have incredible sadness, because I cannot explain to the people who
> >> >crashed the planes why what they did was wrong. They wouldn't believe me
> >> >that they're simply dead, that all the people they killed are dead, that
> >> >nobody went to Allah or Heaven or any such thing.

> >> Says you. I, and a lot of your "fellow Americans" would disagree with you.

> >> Mattias

> >True, but you have no basis for this disagreement.

> And you have basis for yours? I suppose you've been dead a few times, then? :-)

> >People believe in an afterlife despite a complete lack of supporting
> >evidence. Why is it that we accept a lower standard of proof for the most
> >profound existential question than we do for the most mundane scientific
> >theory?

> Most people believe in things that science cannot explain. Love. Friendship.
> The beauty of a sunset.

> As I understand it, post-modernism is the belief that science does not have
> all the answers, despite what we were told for years.. And it's what's
> replacing modernism, not being replaced by something else, or so I'm told.

> >I understand that religion gives people comfort, and I am loathe to deny
> >them that comfort. But it is an illusion. God had nothing to do with this
> >mess, nor will He be around to help us clean it up. This one has "humanity"
> >written all over it. We have no one else to blame nor anyone else to turn
> >to.

> I'm not disagreeing that humanity is to blame for the disaster. However,
> some interesting stories have already surfaced from yesterday, and others
> will no doubt follow: a christian who had NEVER been late for work in his
> career of over 20 years (and was well known in his office as someone who was
> never late) and worked in the WTC just "happened" to pick Tuesday as the
> first day of his career to be late? Another christian (on his way to the
> WTC) who only turns on his cell phone to MAKE phone calls had a feeling he
> should turn it on on Tuesday while driving to work. His wife called him,
> they got talking, he was delayed.

> I respect your views, and do NOT want this to degenerate into another
> flamewar, especially in light of the tragedy.

> I respectfully disagree with your beliefs. Yet, I also respect your right to
> hold those views.

Oh, do shut up. God, you are disgusting.

by **Kevin F. Gavit** » Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:18:50

>> > Innoents were slaughtered. That's all that this attack really meant.
> ***
>> > nationalism.

>> Some of the victims are probably survivors of the original Trade Center
>> bombing, too.

> No anger. No fear. No bickering among ourselves. No hatred. No witch
> hunts. No paranoia.

> This is what they want.

> Find them. Try them, fairly. Punish them, justly.

> Let the heavens stand, though justice be done.

> --
> Jason Shankel
> Maxis/EA
> s h a n k e l "at" p o b o x . c o m
> Play rich, creamery OpenTrek at www.pobox.com/~shankel/opentrek.html
> "This is very dangerous -- look how large those *** ***es are."
> Chief Yim Symany, Phnom Pehn Police Dept.

Jason, I may well have lost more than one family member or friend in this
incident. . . and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

It is easy to take revenge. It serves no one and nothing.

Killing is easy. Justice is hard. Let's do it right. . . the hard way.

KFG

by **Jason Shanke** » Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:25:54

Too true. We're already standing on the edge of one abyss; let's not dig
another.

Ditto, for lack of a better term of agreement. And I am sorry. Like most,
I generally make it a rule not to engage in religious argument because, as
you rightly point out, no one really has a firm basis for debate...at least
we won't until we're dead. Atheism means never being able to say I told you
so :-)

It's just the emotion of this whole thing. It didn't really hit me
yesterday. It just felt like...history. Like something school kids will be
bored to tears with in some future classroom. But today it's hitting home
and knowing that there was most likely a religious motive, however
misguided, just pushed my anti-religious buttons. So, again, sorry.

--
Jason Shankel
Maxis/EA
s h a n k e l "at" p o b o x . c o m
Play rich, creamery OpenTrek at www.pobox.com/~shankel/opentrek.html

by **Brandon J. Van Ever** » Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:30:58

I'm not interested in dying for my country. I'm interested in making the
other poor sonofa*** die for his cause.

--
Cheers, www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

People who make personal attacks are useless.
I killfile them no matter who they are insulting.

by **Jason Shanke** » Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:33:42

> > I respectfully disagree with your beliefs. Yet, I also respect your
right to
> > hold those views.

> Oh, do shut up. God, you are disgusting.

Look, Azzy, how about cutting a little slack? Emotions are running pretty
high and I think people can be forgiven for not conforming to your
expectations of appropriate conversation. None of us are ourselves just
now.

--
Jason Shankel
Maxis/EA
s h a n k e l "at" p o b o x . c o m
Play rich, creamery OpenTrek at www.pobox.com/~shankel/opentrek.html

by **Joe Ottoso** » Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:33:15

Post Modernism's main bent is that it's pointless to look for meaning in
anything because there is none at all to be found. It, like modernism etc
will probably pass into another set of conceptions.

Uh huh... And I predicted the strike psychically because I was stricken with
insomnia (mind just went brooding on uneasy topics and I couldn't nod off)
until around 7:20am on 9/11.

It's nice that people were spared, but this is not a good excuse to go
preaching to people. Just using the corpses as meat puppets. It's sick.

by **Brandon J. Van Ever** » Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:36:35

Stoop? We are all being asked to decide a lot, cosmically and/or
spiritually. My life was reasonably ok, until yesterday. What will I risk
to secure a just world? Why will I risk it?

Atheists with a solid grasp of history aren't innocent. I wasn't innocent
about previous airplanes blowing up. But I see the increase in scale, and I
see that the scale will continue to increase unless challenged. I do not
feel like waiting for a nuke or a biological weapon to take out a major
American city.

--
Cheers, www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

People who make personal attacks are useless.
I killfile them no matter who they are insulting.

by **Brandon J. Van Ever** » Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:39:14

Actually, um, science can explain those things. Chemicals, resource
acquisition strategies, vitamin D production.

The world is complicated. Many things are best explained by the accident of
their complication, not a rigid, reductive, "scientific" outlook.

--
Cheers, www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

People who make personal attacks are useless.
I killfile them no matter who they are insulting.

by **Brandon J. Van Ever** » Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:39:59

Azzy, be careful the line you walk here. Farther down that road, is
probably where the terrorists are.

--
Cheers, www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

People who make personal attacks are useless.
I killfile them no matter who they are insulting.

by **Mattias Hembru** » Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:44:15

>> I respect your views, and do NOT want this to degenerate into another
>> flamewar, especially in light of the tragedy.

>Too true. We're already standing on the edge of one abyss; let's not dig
>another.

>> I respectfully disagree with your beliefs. Yet, I also respect your right
>to
>> hold those views.

>Ditto, for lack of a better term of agreement. And I am sorry. Like most,
>I generally make it a rule not to engage in religious argument because, as
>you rightly point out, no one really has a firm basis for debate...at least
>we won't until we're dead. Atheism means never being able to say I told you
>so :-)

>It's just the emotion of this whole thing. It didn't really hit me
>yesterday. It just felt like...history. Like something school kids will be
>bored to tears with in some future classroom. But today it's hitting home
>and knowing that there was most likely a religious motive, however
>misguided, just pushed my anti-religious buttons. So, again, sorry.

No need to apologize, I took no offense at anything you said - nothing I
haven't heard before :-).

Azzy on the other hand...

If I said anything to push your buttons, I'm sorry. I partially understand
the emotions involved, even though I'm on the other side of the border, and
the closest connection to NY I have is that I know of one student of mine
who said he was moving to NY to work in spring 2000..

My point was: blaming EVERYONE with religious beliefs isn't the answer
either, as easy as it is, IMHO. A blanket statement like "no one went to
heaven" targets most religions on the planet, not only those involved (if
such was the case - I have no reason to believe it wasn't).

In retrospect, I may not have said it in the best possible way. Again, my
apologies as well.

Mattias

rec.autos.simulators

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