rec.autos.simulators

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

Barton Spencer Brow

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Barton Spencer Brow » Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:00:00


> Mikka has been quoted as saying that he would prefer for the

championship to be decided on the track.

A preference apparently not shared by Ron Dennis!

BB

Peter Ive

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Peter Ive » Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Don't know if I am just being paranoid but I've felt that for the last
couple of championships, things have been contrived, with a little help
from the FIA, so that the Drivers Championship is in the balance right
up until the last race?  Somehow I don't see this year being any
different and I fully expect Ferrari (and Irvine) to still be in the
hunt in Japan.
--
Peter Ives
Lawrence Edward

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Lawrence Edward » Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Barton

I hadn't realised Ron could be such an arse!

It's interesting you raise the false start issue - where Mikka got away with
it because he didn't gain an advantage (apart perhaps from surprising the
rest of the grid.) I think that the fact Ferrari didn't gain any significant
advantage is pertinent again with the bodywork issue. Also, several drivers
have driven through chicanes this year, in fact I think Damon Hill is one of
the worst. They have got away with it so long as they didn't gain an
advantage. The same rule should apply for the bodywork infringement IMO.

Unlike some of the views in this thread, I have faith that the appeal
committee will reach a fair decision in the best interests of the sport.
Hopefully Ron will be told where to go!

Lawrence



championship. >>

Lawrence Edward

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Lawrence Edward » Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Barton

Erm, sorry, I need to look that one up too! LOL

Fair enough, I was a bit OT and I didn't mean it to come accross the way it
did.

Lawrence

David Ewin

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by David Ewin » Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:00:00


> I also think McLaren should be given credit for publically supporting
> Ferrari - Mikka has been quoted as saying that he would prefer for the
> championship to be decided on the track.

Unfortunately, McLaren's official position is 180 degrees opposite to their
original off-hand comments.  They are now calling for the FIA to DQ Ferrari.

http://www.atlasf1.com/news/1720.htm

Dave

--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing        303-544-5454

*****************************************************

John Walla

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by John Walla » Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:00:00

On Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:14:46 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"


>That's very true, John.....we can all live without any of the teams that
>make up the current F1 circus, just as we can all live without other
>long-standing traditions and institutions throughout the world.
>What a forlorn place it would be. And what a terribly sad bunch would
>populate it.

I think the sad bunch are the current populace, for allowing sports to
become that which they are now. I loved F1 in the 70's, thought it
looked better in the 60's, but the 80's was the pinnacle - it also
marked the watershed, delineating what it was to what it has become.

Compare Ferrari of Villeneuve's time to Ferrari of Mansell's time to
Ferrari today - they're a lot more likely to consistently win, but in
truth are they and different to McLaren or Williams? Oh yes, the cars
are red.....or is that Williams?

Cheers!
John

Wolfgang Preis

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Wolfgang Preis » Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:00:00


>> I am in the camp of many that believe Ron Dennis knew about this since
>> Nurburgring (or before), and simply chose to wait for the most
>> beneficial time for McLaren to snitch to the FIA about it.  I'm not a

>I heard that the complaining team was Stewart not McLaren. or am I
>wrong?

Do not, I repeat, do NOT believe info provided by RTL television. ;)

Those guys are simply unable to distinguish between a "race steward"
(who discovered the problem) and "team Stewart" (who had nothing to do
at all with the whole affair, AFAIK.)

As it seems, nobody knows for sure who alerted the FIA officials, but
it has been insinuated that somebody from McLaren told them to examine
the Ferrari's barge boards.

--
Wolfgang Preiss   \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.


Barry Lee

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Barry Lee » Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Your right! There'd be no more dirty tactics and slow driving for blocking
effect! I think cutting down the number of cars per team to 1 would fix up
most of the BS with F1. Oh, and bring back slipstreaming effects.



John Walla

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by John Walla » Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:00:00

On Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:03:29 +0100, "Lawrence Edwards"


>It's interesting you raise the false start issue - where Mikka got away with
>it because he didn't gain an advantage (apart perhaps from surprising the
>rest of the grid.) I think that the fact Ferrari didn't gain any significant
>advantage is pertinent again with the bodywork issue. Also, several drivers
>have driven through chicanes this year, in fact I think Damon Hill is one of
>the worst. They have got away with it so long as they didn't gain an
>advantage. The same rule should apply for the bodywork infringement IMO.

The difference there is in proving it - you can easily see that Mika
had no advantage, and the stopwatch shows what advantage cutting a
chicane proffers - smart drivers slow down a touch to ensure that
sector time is slower than normal. In addition the stewards have the
luxury of time to deliberate and a range of options as a penalty.

In the case of Ferrari it is impossible to define the level of any
performance advantage, just as it impossible to do anything other than
DQ them since the race is finished and other options are closed.

A fair decision in the best interest of the _rules_. The best interest
of the sport (and Bernie's walet) is to reinstate the points and have
a stonking showdown in Suzuka - so should we just overlook all
illegalities then? That, IMO, would be farcical, and I'd happily
forgoe the pleasure of a championship showdown to demonstrate that F1
has one tiny shred of "sport" left in it and that it's not, as I
believe, run entirely as a marketing exercise and money-spinner.

It's not Ron's affair - it's the Ross, Jean and Eddie show.

Cheers!
John

>Unlike some of the views in this thread, I have faith that the appeal
>committee will reach a fair decision in the best interests of the sport.
>Hopefully Ron will be told where to go!

>Lawrence



>championship. >>
>> ....
>> Guess it all depends upon whose ox is being gored at the moment, as
>> Dennis certainly lobbied hard enough earlier in the season to duck
>> (successfully, too) having Hakkinen sent to the back of the grid for his
>> self-admitted false start, and Dennis also argued long and loud
>> (successfully, too) about his flouting of the FIA's ban on "team
>> orders".

Barry Lee

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Barry Lee » Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:00:00

The design specs of the cars prevents this style of racing. There used to
be such a thing as a slipstream. Its now called DIRTY AIR and racers stay
out of it. That basically leaves corners as the only overtaking places (via
outbraking maneuvres) which are riskier as you are totally committed
resulting in many take-offs.


Barry Lee

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Barry Lee » Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Exactly right. This is the perfect scenario. A news beat-up about DQ,
reverse decision, and have even greater audience for the last race. Bernies
Digital TV will be pleased!



Barry Lee

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Barry Lee » Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:00:00

It would have been found if Ferrari had scored points!. Checks on
non-scoring cars are RANDOM, not mandatory.



Beeler

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Beeler » Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Very true, Irvine isn't all that good.
Richard G Cleg

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Richard G Cleg » Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:00:00

: Richard....please read what I wrote, would you?

  Did do - wish you'd returned the courtesy.

: I said when cheating became more freqent....NOT when it started.

  And I said _do you have any evidence for that whatsoever_?  I believe
that cheating is _less_ frequent now than it was in the 70s despite the
fact that the sport is more commercial now than it was then.  (I also
believe that the decrese in cheating is due to more rigorous checking
not due to any particular increase in virtue).  I couldn't comment on
earlier F1 - maybe there was no cheating whatsoever in the 60s - I
severely doubt it - then again, I'm not sure what technical regulations
there were to break in the 60s apart from engine size (which would be
easily detectable).  

  Apart from anything else, there are so many more tests now that it's
simply inconceivable that teams could cheat quite so blatantly as they
did in the 70s and get away with it.

--
Richard G. Clegg       Only the mind is waving
    Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
      Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
    www:  http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

Jerry Moreloc

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Jerry Moreloc » Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:00:00

FIA could learn something from NASCAR regarding this whole mess--

If you have no rulebook to enforce, then you can make up your rules as you
go along.

Voila!  Problem solved--Ferrari could then be deemed to have "done nothing
detrimental to the sport of F1 racing", and they could have all gone to
Suzuka and made a pile of money.

But if those damned *rules* are out there in the way, then . . .

And all the European guys look down their noses at NASCAR, hehehe.  <g>

NASCAR's only rule is to do whatever they think will make them the most
money--probably not a bad rule to have in the grand scheme.

Jerry Morelock

> A fair decision in the best interest of the _rules_. The best interest
> of the sport (and Bernie's walet) is to reinstate the points and have
> a stonking showdown in Suzuka - so should we just overlook all
> illegalities then? That, IMO, would be farcical, and I'd happily
> forgoe the pleasure of a championship showdown to demonstrate that F1
> has one tiny shred of "sport" left in it and that it's not, as I
> believe, run entirely as a marketing exercise and money-spinner.

> >Hopefully Ron will be told where to go!

> It's not Ron's affair - it's the Ross, Jean and Eddie show.

> Cheers!
> John

> >Unlike some of the views in this thread, I have faith that the appeal
> >committee will reach a fair decision in the best interests of the sport.
> >Hopefully Ron will be told where to go!

> >Lawrence



> >championship. >>
> >> ....
> >> Guess it all depends upon whose ox is being gored at the moment, as
> >> Dennis certainly lobbied hard enough earlier in the season to duck
> >> (successfully, too) having Hakkinen sent to the back of the grid for
his
> >> self-admitted false start, and Dennis also argued long and loud
> >> (successfully, too) about his flouting of the FIA's ban on "team
> >> orders".


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