rec.autos.simulators

> : My disappointment, Mr. Black, stems from the complete lack of
sportsmanship
> : that now epitomises F1.

>   C'mon Bruce - I thought you _remembered_ the old days of F1.  In the 70s
> and 80s you could play "spot the cheat".  Or how about playing "which
> teams used the following cheats":

>   Overly tall car and a nail covertly inserted into the tyre after the
> race to get it under the scrutineers ruler.

>   Underweight car and special "lead lined" engine cover put in place
> for scrutineering.

>   "Water cooled" brakes which happened to loose all that heavy water at
> some point during the race (allowing the car to run underweight).

>   Covert flip of a bit of paper across the electronic eye to shave a
> few tenths off a qualifying time.

>   I'm sure that when you think back you can come up with your own.

>   Formula One has _always_ had its politics and its dodgy dealings -
> it's just that we think of the older ones as "the whacky exploits
> they used to get away with" and the newer ones as "that scandal which
> would never have happened in the old days.

>   I don't know enough about the 60s to comment but do you really believe
> that the 70s and 80s were more sporting?

> --
> Richard G. Clegg       Only the mind is waving
>     Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
>       Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
>     www:  http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> > I tried to check it out from Oz with my little short-wave radio but the
> > atmospherics were playing up and the best I could get was Radio Caracas.
I
> > believe it's just as good.

> Better, since it comes from a civilized country with an understandable
language...

> ;^)

> BB

> On Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:49:27 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"

> >I beg your pardon, and please excuse my apoplectic fit, but it's about
time
> >that the FIA, and their cronies, *REMOVED* the negative bias that they
have
> >directed towards Ferrari over the past 30 years.

> I'd love to hear examples of that - if anything the FIA have bent over
> backwards to keep Ferrari happy. Remember the "Draconian penalties"
> for anyone caught infringing the rules? Oh, except Ferrari....

> >As for your mistaken assertion regarding one member of Ferrari being a
> >mobile chicane in order to allow the other an easier run, I seem to
recall
> >the situation being reveresd, where Irvine assisted Schumacher in at
least
> >one race. I also recalll Coulthard attempting to try it this year as
well.

> Coulthard has been racing Hakkinen all year - no way would he be
> holding up a Ferrari while Mika got away as Mika would be getting away
> rom him as well.

> >You are overlooking the fact that Messrs Moseley and Ecclestone, Denis
and
> >Hakkinen cannot have their cake and eat it too.  Formula Once (deliberate
> >spelling) is a team sport.....there must be two cars and the teams vie
for a
> >Manufacturers Championship each season.  Therefore team tactics are
> >perfectly acceptable.

> I like the team tactics aspect, but it can be taken too far - cycle
> racing and rugby union a faw years back being examples of where team
> tactics designed to win detract from the reason the sport existed in
> the first place, to entertain. FWIW I don't subscribe to the Ron
> Dennis view that Sepang was too much - I thought Schumacher drove
> superbly and if DC can pass Mika should be able to also. In fact my
> wife, who normally hates F1, was enthralled by the whole race - EI
> worried by DC who has nothing to lose, MH similarly worried by MS. DC
> passes MS wildly, chasing EI to pressure him into an error, or lunge a
> pass (which EI must concede to) then slow EI to bring him into range
> of the MS/MH battle - ripping stuff :-)

> >My disappointment, Mr. Black, stems from the complete lack of
sportsmanship
> >that now epitomises F1.  This latest example, where a protest is lodged
over
> >10mm of carbon fibre when the protesting team were soundly and
convincingly
> >beaten by the better team tactics on the day, is simply one occasion in a
> >whole string of them.

> That is not true - the illegality of the car was discovered by the
> stewards without neither the intervention nor protest from McLaren.

> >Ten millimetres of carbon fibre did not beat McLaren.
> >Ferrari could have removed the barge-boards and still Coulthard and
Hakkinen
> >would have still been up against it.

> Probably, but we don't know that. Illegal is illegal, that's why the
> rules exist. Suppose that an aero improvement brings big benefits, the
> more area the better - how much over the regulations are you allowed -
> 1mm? 5mm? 10mm? The answer is 0mm, that's why the rules exist. With a
> budget of $100m+ if Ferrari can't find an irregularity on a car they
> designed but which a steward spotted in a post-race check, they can
> hardly point the finger at anyone.

> It's a _very_ unsatisfactory way to end the race and the season, but
> I'd have no respect for F1 if they failed to DQ Ferrari.

> Cheers!
> John

> > My disappointment, Mr. Black, stems from the complete lack of
sportsmanship
> > that now epitomises F1.  This latest example, where a protest is lodged
over
> > 10mm of carbon fibre when the protesting team were soundly and
convincingly
> > beaten by the better team tactics on the day, is simply one occasion in
a
> > whole string of them. Ten millimetres of carbon fibre did not beat
McLaren.
> > Ferrari could have removed the barge-boards and still Coulthard and
Hakkinen
> > would have still been up against it.

> Just for the record Bruce, according to Autosport, the "illegal"
> bargeboards was discovered in a routine post race inspection and not
> because of a protest lodged by any other team, although McLaren was
> thinking about protesting the tyre wear on the Ferrari's, apparently
> they had worn below the required minimum thread height, nice to have all
> these rules that are so easy to police .......

> --

> Beers and cheers
> (uncle) Goy

> "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/
> "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

> :>
> :>   Luxembourg GP this year.

> : Jesus!  Well, if *that* made your heart beat fast, Richard, get on down
to
> : your doctor and have a check-up *really* quickly!!

>   (Grin) Well, what do _you_ look for in a race Bruce?  That had passing
> for the lead and for major positions, crashing out of the lead, weather
> effects and mechanical failure.  What are _you_ looking for in a race?
> 70% drop out through mechanical failure and the winner 2 minutes ahead
> like in the 60s?

> --
> Richard G. Clegg       Only the mind is waving
>     Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
>       Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
>     www:  http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> Don't watch it then.

> > Formula One........a time when a privateer could compete on equal terms
> with
> > the manufacturers.  A time when laughter was more common in pit lane
than
> > grumbles.  A time when a team in trouble and requiring a part would have
> it
> > loaned by a rival.  A time when the drivers socialised before and after
> the
> > races.  A time when losing a race was done so graciously.  A time when
> > winning was done with equal grace
> > .
> > Formula One.......a time when it was a sport in the purest sense of the
> > word.

> > > > I hate to say this, I really do, but if the disqualification is
upheld
> > > > following the Ferrari appeal, I hope that they withdraw from F1.
> > > > This is not an opinion that I arrive at lightly....not after
following
> > > > Grands Prix for almost as long as Murray Walker.  But by turning
their
> > backs
> > > > on F1 Ferrari, in my opinion, could have the greatest effect on the
> > "sport"
> > > > since that egotistical meglomaniac took control.

> > > > Just the opinion of a once-dedicated F1 fan.

> > > Bruce--

> > > I couldn't agree more. This "Championship" has been engineered from
the
> > > beginning of the season by that ageing Machiavelli-in-Guccis and his
> > > tousle-haired Son-Of-Oswald crony. If Enzo were alive today,
Ecclestone
> > > would be soaking his Armani slacks at this moment -- no, let me take
> > > that back: if Enzo were alive today, this shit wouldn't happen,
because
> > > he WOULD pull the team, and FIAT would back him all the way. 20 years
> > > between Championships is -- correct me if I'm wrong -- a record for
> > > Ferrari, and there's no doubt whatsoever that under Ecclestone's
> > > self-imposed reign (since he finally ousted that doddering fossil
> > > Jean-Marie Balestre), British teams have enjoyed a singularly
benevolent
> > > shake from FIA, FISA, FOCA, FOA, and every other increasingly
grotesque
> > > manifestation of "Bernie Ecclestone LLC." And I hope this finally
spurs
> > > the EU to put some teeth in their investigations. This is a black day
> > > for F1 fans. If this isn't overturned, I hope the twin megalomaniacs
> > > Tony George and Bernard Ecclestone meet for the 2000 USGP and are torn
> > > apart by the mob of 150 or so that will turn up.

> > > That's it for F1 -- GPL is more than a memory of great cars, drivers,
> > > and tracks -- it's also a reminder that there once was a sport called
> > > Formula One...long since departed, alas.

> > > BB

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>>In the end it's the fans who lose and they've turned Suzuka into a race that
>>is meaningless.

>"They" presumably being Ferrari? The FIA officials did their job,
>nothing more nor less.

>Cheers!
>John

> Richard, pushing the rules to the nth. degree has always existed but
> "cheating" really only became more frequent after the commercialisation of
> the sport, I'm afraid.  As the commercial interests became greater, so the
> elevl of good sportsmanship dropped.

> So from around the beginning of the 1970s onwards F1 began to decompose in
> that respect.

> Interesting weekend to be sure :(  Schumacher was brilliant beyond
> words... how people continue to disrespect this guy is beyond me.  He's
> obnoxious and arrogant to be sure... to the extreme... but he is
> obviously THE BEST pilot on the planet right now.  How he covers the
> McLarens by nearly 1 full second in qualifying is beyond me... Mika and
> David must feel like morons, driving the best car on the planet but a
> full second adrift of the master.  How long has it been since a non-
> winner of a race so completely dominated the entire race in every way?

> Hammer