rec.autos.simulators

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

Barton Spencer Brow

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Barton Spencer Brow » Sat, 23 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Well, it makes no difference in a cosmic sense, though it would
certainly be startling in the context of the Malaysian GP, as such a
statement, relating specifically to the barge boards, would have had to
have been made by Irvine long before they were found illegal (irvine was
already out of the country and was unaware of the DQ until Jean Todt
called him later), which would be a prefiguration of guilt so massive
that it would be very difficult to understand why no one in the motoring
press caught it, then or afterwards.

For the purposes of this particular little corner of the cosmos, I was
intending to show that, in a flurry of namecalling and brickbat tossing,
Mr. Wallace had apparently become confused. So, to calm your nerves, I
wasn't referring to the evidentiary impact upon the deliberations in
Paris of whether or not Irvine said so-and-so, I was referring to the
unfortunate hubris displayed in this very newsgroup when tempers get the
better of sense.

Bottom line: My remarks had nothing whatsoever to do with the DQ in
Malaysia or the appeal in Paris, but had everything to do with how
emotions can cause people to insist on positions that are just factually
not true.

Since writing my question to Mr. Wallace, I have researched the quote in
question, and found it -- unfortunately chopped into two fairly equal
parts -- in two separate and unrelated F1 news archives. The quote(s) in
question were made by Irvine in the post-qualifying interview session in
Sepang on Saturday October 16th, 1999, and at no time during this
session, or in any other public pronouncement by Eddie Irvine during the
race weekend, were the barge boards discussed, as far as has been
reported. If the facts are otherwise, I have yet to discover them to be
so, and -- as I said above -- such a pronouncement prior to the DQ would
not only have sent the motorsports journalists present into paroxysms of
purple prose, it would have made today's appeal meeting in Paris a
completely moot point, and the appeal itself would never have been
granted by the FIA. Speaking of which:

<<Championship decision on Saturday
Posted 21/10/1999 16:24:05
Atlas F1 News

Press conference scheduled for 11am in Paris

The result of Ferraris appeal against their disqualification in the
Malaysian Grand Prix will be announced in a press conference on Saturday
morning.

A statement released by the FIA today said: "The president of the FIA
[Max Mosley] will give a press conference on Saturday October 23 at 11
a.m. in Paris, at which the result of the Ferrari appeal will be
announced and questions on this and other motor sport topics will be answered.">>


> I don't see why it should make any difference whether Eddie Irvine was
> referring to the barge boards or not....
> Peter Ives

Barton Spencer Brow

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Barton Spencer Brow » Sat, 23 Oct 1999 04:00:00


> You're not a surgeon, by any chance, are you Bart? :o)

No, nor do I play one on TV! Most people think I'm a***, but I just
have an anal-retentive jones for the truth, as far as the truth can be ascertained...

BB

Bruce Kennewel

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Bruce Kennewel » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

You're not a surgeon, by any chance, are you Bart? :o)




> > As I mentioned at the start of my message, that was a quote from Eddie
> > talking about the barge boards.


> Let me quote one Mr. Edde Irvine talking specifically about the new
> barge boards...

> "We pretty much had the car as in the Nurburgring, I could quite
> easily have put the car on pole [in the Nurburgring] if I had put a
> lap together. Here [Sepang] was the first time we showed it. In
> testing before Nurburgring we went backwards a little bit, but we
> tested after that and understood what we had done wrong. AS YOU CAN
> SEE, IT'S A BIG STEP FORWARD".

> I think the misunderstanding here, John, is the lack of context. *You*
> say the quote from Eddie Irvine is regarding the Ferrari barge boards,
> and apparently you believe the last sentence, which you have emphasized,
> is Irvine's statement that something having been done to the barge
> boards is the reason for "THE BIG STEP FORWARD," but nowhere in the
> Irvine quote as you have cited it is there any reference to barge boards
> at all. Is there some part of the quote that you have excised -- for
> brevity's sake, perhaps -- that specifically indicates Irvine was
> talking about the barge boards? Where did you see the quote? I'd
> certainly be interested in the full text and context of a quote made by
> Irvine apparently some time before the DQ at Sepang in which he clearly
> states that the barge boards in question were the reason for Ferrari's
> much better showing in Malaysia than at the Luxembourg GP. Please let us
> know where we can find the whole quote.

> Thanks

> Bart Brown

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Ronald Stoeh

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Ronald Stoeh » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

John Wallace schrieb:

> On Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:34:32 +0200, Ronald Stoehr

> >I doubt, EI was talking about the barge boards here, just about the
> >improved car in total. The chief engineer from Minardi said in an
> >interview that those 10mm would do nothing (at most 0.1s) to help
> >the performance of the car.

> As I mentioned at the start of my message, that was a quote from Eddie
> talking about the barge boards. I'm sure you're right, the chief
> engineer of Minardi will be better informed....

> >Do you believe Eddie, or do you believe an engineer...?

> That _has_ to be rhetorical? Do I believe the guy who was driving the
> car, testing the car, involved in the setup and all the team meetings
> and strategy decisions, or do I believe someone from the back of the
> grid who saw the car in the pit-lane?

Sorry, EI may be a pretty good racer, but questions about performance
improvements resulting from different aerodynamic devices on an F1 car
are better answered by even a Minardi engineer. Also, every expert
interviewed during this week said exactly the same thing. The remaining
question now is ONLY: is it appropriate to punish the drivers for an
incorrect aerodynamic device without any performance gain?

l8er
ronny

--
The box said "Windows 95 or better", so I installed LINUX!

          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

John Walla

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by John Walla » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00


>I do not dispute that, nice sarcasm there :)  My information comes from
>the numerous articles at AtlasF1 where it's clearly stated by the
>designer at Jordan and at Mindardi that it is widely accepted there is
>(in Gascoyne's words) "no measurable advantage".  I choose to believe
>what they are saying.  If you do not, we'll just disagree.

Sorry if my sarcasm was overblown :-)  I do find it strange that
someone believes people who are NOT involved at Derrari and have never
driven the car. I also find it strange that the words of Eddie, the
guy who drives the car, has a comparative benchmark from the old car,
and has been involved in tests, meetings etc are so easily set aside.

Until you can quantify the effects of those 1cm parts then any
discussion on right and wrong as regards advantage is meaningless. As
loss as we don't know we can use other evidence to support or deny the
claim (Irvine, Gascoyne), but we cannot know.

The one thing we CAN know is that the car was illegal - kinda makes
the above discussion pointless...

Cheers!
John

John Walla

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by John Walla » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

On Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:18:41 -0500, Barton Spencer Brown


>I think the misunderstanding here, John, is the lack of context....Please let us
>know where we can find the whole quote.

Surely you can find the whole quote in my previous message? The
context was supplied, and the quote quoted in it's entirety. Is usenet
so bad that a quote can't be believed without actually seeing the
printed paper? Are we so unwilling to believe a contrary opinion?
Perhaps in that case I should quote the journalists name, home address
and 'phone number so his veracity and credentials can be checked?
Maybe see if he is anti or pro-Ferrari?

FYI the quote is lifted ad nauseam from the Autosport of 21st October
1999, page 6, column 3, paragraph 7.

Cheers!
John

PS - Just a personal whinge of mine, but please don't respond in the
group and send the same message by e-mail as well. My mailbox is
severely clogged up as it is and I just have to delete such messages
to respond in the group. Thanks :-)

John Walla

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by John Walla » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

On Sat, 23 Oct 1999 01:10:29 +0200, Ronald Stoehr


>Sorry, EI may be a pretty good racer, but questions about performance
>improvements resulting from different aerodynamic devices on an F1 car
>are better answered by even a Minardi engineer.

Why? If you sit in on a fluid dynamics lecture when they tell you the
answers to exam question will you be in a better position to answer it
than a professor who's had a brief glimpse of a glass of water?

I'll listen to Eddie.

No. The question is "in the absence of any means to establish whether
performance gain was made or not, is it right to punish the drivers
for winning in an illegal car".

The answer is yes.

Cheers!
John

John Walla

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by John Walla » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

On Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:42:22 -0500, Barton Spencer Brown


>Since writing my question to Mr. Wallace, I have researched the quote in
>question, and found it -- unfortunately chopped into two fairly equal
>parts -- in two separate and unrelated F1 news archives. The quote(s) in
>question were made by Irvine in the post-qualifying interview session in
>Sepang on Saturday October 16th, 1999, and at no time during this
>session, or in any other public pronouncement by Eddie Irvine during the
>race weekend, were the barge boards discussed, as far as has been
>reported.

From Autosport....

"The barge boards at the centre of the dispute were first run at last
month's European GP, and have been kept covered at every opportunity.
Before Sunday's race, Eddie Irvine said that they had significantly
improved performance....[insert previous quotation here].

I hope this is sufficiently unequivocal.

As ever though, this is still focussing on irrelevancies. The issue is
not whether or not the car was faster in the race, but whether or not
it was legal. I can't even see grounds for appeal, although I fully
expect Ferrari to have their wrists mildly slapped and strings pulled
furiously so that "Showdown in Suzuka" is back on.

Cheers!
John

Goy Larse

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Goy Larse » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00


> As ever though, this is still focussing on irrelevancies. The issue is
> not whether or not the car was faster in the race, but whether or not
> it was legal. I can't even see grounds for appeal, although I fully
> expect Ferrari to have their wrists mildly slapped and strings pulled
> furiously so that "Showdown in Suzuka" is back on.

Well, wether we agree or not on this topic, at least you got the last
part right John, Ferrari got the win back............

Personally, the only thing this has shown me is that FIA is unable to
police their own rules properly, to me, *that* is the biggest issue
here, and it has proven to be a sad story

All the good intentions of a specific rule is totally waisted if it
can't be policed properly, but it is not surprising that FIA doesn't
understand this, they understand very little about most anything else,
so why should this be different, anyone for a game of chess ?

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

John Walla

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by John Walla » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00


>Well, wether we agree or not on this topic, at least you got the last
>part right John, Ferrari got the win back............

Incredible isn't it? FIA measure a part an find it illegal, Ferrari
look at it and admit that it is, then the ruling is overturned because
it actually isn't when "measured more accurately". Were they using
guesstimations in Sepang then?

Good luck to Eddie and Mika, but the whole thing utterly reeks of
incompetence and is a shoddy way to run the world's premier racing
series far less to win it.

Cheers!
John

Barton Spencer Brow

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Barton Spencer Brow » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00


> From Autosport....

"The barge boards at the centre of the dispute were first run at last
month's European GP, and have been kept covered at every opportunity.
Before Sunday's race, Eddie Irvine said that they had significantly
improved performance....[insert previous quotation here]"

I'm more curious than ever, now: while I've found the Irvine quote that
begins "An all Ferrari front row is not bad for tomorrow. The car is
pretty much the same as before the Nurburgring..." several times
(including Autosport), I still haven't found the all-important
contextual prolegomenon that you've quoted above. If you have the
Autosport issue (paper mag) or E-zine quote at hand, please let me know
the date of (better yet, a hypertext link to) the quote. I've been
through every online archived story from the Sepang weekend at
Autosport's site, and I just can't find it. I'd truly appreciate help in
solving this mystery, moot point though it may seem to some...I'm
keeping a chronicle of this season, and I hate to miss a direct quote as
important as this.

Speaking of moot points, did anyone seriously expect the FIA to rule
otherwise? The F1 Drivers' and Manufacturers' championships are a
business, not a sport -- though I still believe that on the track and in
the pits, it's very much a sport for the drivers, engineers, and
mechanics. On the track, the racing is real; it's the Championships that
are manufactured and manipulated. Stirling Moss had a very interesting
thing to say about the subject of his one-point miss of the 1958
Championship in his book with Ken Purdy: [my rough paraphrase] "If I was
leading the race that would win me the championship today -- far in the
lead, car going like a bomb, tires and oil to burn -- do you know what
I'd do? On the last turn of the last lap, I'd pull over, park the car
under a tree, pull of my helmet, and watch the end of the race. Why?
What would winning one championship mean? Mike Hawthorn won a World
Championship; did that make Mike a better driver than I am? I liked
Mike, he was a wonderful chap, and when he was "on" he was very good.
But Mike had a lot of "off" days, and when he was off, well...if Mike
was a couple laps behind, he just gave it up. If I won five
Championships, would that make me as good a driver as Fangio? Not on
your life: I always felt I was better in sports cars than Fangio; he
just didn't like them -- but in a GP car, he was the best, in my day. If
I won the Championship TEN times it wouldn't have made me as GOOD a
driver as Fangio."

The last decade or so of F1 has seemed to me to have artificially
blurred the drivers' side of the racing equation, Enzo Ferrari's 'ratio
of car to driver." In Moss' era, and to a lesser extent on into the '60s
and '70s, the good drivers picked the cars, not the other way around.
Moss won GP races in Vanwalls, Maseratis, Mercedes, and Loti. Fangio in
Ferraris, Mercedes, and Maseratis. Except for the Italian drivers, for
whom driving for Ferrari was the Holy Grail, the good drivers who could
afford to pick and choose picked the best, whatever they were; the rest
got what was left over. When teams started getting the commercial
wherewithal to fund an arms race, part of that arms race was buying the
best drivers -- the relationship between manufacturers and drivers had
changed, quietly but fundamentally. It changed even further in the
Cosworth kitcar -- or, in Ferrari's pungent phrase, "garagiste" -- era,
when there was less and less "manufacturer" identity, that role
gravitating more toward the commercial entities -- tobacco companies and
the like -- that provided the money. As has been cited many times, when
Lotus gave up its name to become "John Player's Specials," a fundamental
cog in the cosmos of F1 racing moved quite significantly. It has never
moved back, though with the trend toward nationalism and "manufacturer"
identity seen in the Stewart-Ford/Jaguar and "More Mercedes, Less
McLaren" prospects for 2000, even THAT pendulum may be on a sort of backswing.

So that leaves the drivers: the hired guns, loyal to none. Their world
is, of necessity, different from that of the manufacturers': they
maneuver for the best salaries, yes. They play the near-NASCAR game of
"well, my Marlboro/Nokia/Tampax/Grecian Formula/Arrows was running
pretty well...", yes. But just like In NASCAR, or anywhere where men and
women have endured the many hardships required to get to the top of any
motorports series, in the end they race. If you took Michael and Mika
and Eddie and DC and the entire F1 field of drivers and dropped them
into NASCAR sedans, likewise took Dale and Dale and Jeff and Bobby and
the entire field of Winston Cup and dropped them into F1 cars, they
would race...it might not be pretty, but every one of them would give it
all they had within themselves to give. That's why we still watch --
after all the Byzantine politics, commercial maneuvering, internecine
power plays, and just plain bullshit, these people race. Drop Moss in
the middle of them, and he'd race, too -- anyone who caught this year's
Monterey Historics would have to -- however bitterly -- agree to that.
These men and women who strap themselves in and have a go, a *real* go,
are special: they represent us; the level of commitment, skill, and
dedication that we all, as humans, strive for, but rarely have the
chance to demonstrate in such a simple, direct, and unequivocal way.
Unlike most sports, the drivers perform alone, as we, in our deepest
hearts, perform alone. They skirt the edge of danger which we --
civilized, coddled, and compartmentalized -- rarely, if ever, confront.
That we live vicariously through them is trite, yet completely true.

Eldre

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Eldre » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00




>> Should I even ASK what a pickelhaube is...?

>Ja, ja! A pickelhaube is the WWI helmet worn (originally, I guess) by
>Prussian officers -- it's the one with the big spike on top -- very snazzy...

>BB

Oh...<sudden realization>...ouch....

Eldred
--
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Go Green!!!  MSU (At least we beat Univ. of Michigan...)
Own Grand Prix Legends?  Goto  http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc

If all the world's a stage, where is the audience sitting?
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Bruce Kennewel

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Bruce Kennewel » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

What exactly does that term mean?  I, being of ancient body, sometimes have
problems with ***retention but I think it may be a bit different to what
you're referring to!




> > You're not a surgeon, by any chance, are you Bart? :o)

> No, nor do I play one on TV! Most people think I'm a***, but I just
> have an anal-retentive jones for the truth, as far as the truth can be
ascertained...

> BB

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Barton Spencer Brow

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Barton Spencer Brow » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

From F1-update, 10/23/1999:

<<Stewart abides by FIA ruling

October 23: Stewart-Ford chief operating officer Paul Stewart commented
that the team abide's by FIA's latest ruling, even though the team lost
five points.

"Fresh evidence was presented at the hearing by the FIA which
acknowledged that the level of infringement was in fact half of that of
the original measurement taken by the FIA technical delegate at the
Malaysian Grand Prix. Based on the fact that five millimetres is the
accepted level of tolerance applied to that particular measurement under
FIA regulations, and the court was satisfied that no infringement had
occurred, we accept the court's decision to uphold Ferrari's appeal.">>

While some may see this as cynicism on the part of the FIA, it *is*,
undeniably, a tidy, Solomon-like way to end the dispute: divide the baby
in half, and suddenly the infringement falls within accepted tolerances.
Speaking of which, someone earlier opined that FIA tech regs specified a
tolerance of Zero. As anyone with a mechanical or enginering background
can tell you, that's an impossibility, only remotely approached in the
core assemblies of nuclear weaponry. I'm sure you've all seen slo-mo
shots of F1 cars bounding over the curbing, the rear wings and bodywork
staggering all over the place like a Funny Car at the staging lights.
Does anyone seriously embrace the notion that such *** contortions
could possibly keep *any* sort of bodywork, let alone the somewhat
insecurely-mounted turning vanes, within Zero tolerance? A great and
clever call by the FIA, and now let's get back to the drivers...

Barton Spencer Brow

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Barton Spencer Brow » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Right you are, Bruce: John Player's Gold Leaf Navy Cut "Racing For
Britain" Lotus -- a title worthy of NASCAR!

BB


> Well, if not a surgeon, you're a writer....or should be.

> Nice piece, Bart.  One very minor point....Lotus became "Gold Leaf" before
> they became "John Player".  I think the gloss started to dull when they
> became the former.

> BK


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