rec.autos.simulators

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

The_Mocke

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by The_Mocke » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

This thread has just set a record for length. While the topic has wandered,
it is still the longest continuous thread to be posted her. Let's give this
thread a hand. It beat the previous longest tread, "Your Mother!" by over 15
replies, and is still going.

Wow.

The Mocker

John Walla

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by John Walla » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

On Sun, 24 Oct 1999 00:03:19 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"


>Pshaw!   It hasn't been fit to carry that classification since Ecclestone
>sold Brabham in order to concentrate fully on FOCA!!

It may not have been fit to, but as much as it has declined nothing
else has risen to replace it. How could any sport (other than
football) have competed on world terms with the 1988-1990 F1 series
involving the Senna/Prost cauldron with bit parts also for Mansell,
Piquet etc?

Cheers!
John

John Walla

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by John Walla » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

On Sat, 23 Oct 1999 09:41:00 -0500, Barton Spencer Brown


>I'm more curious than ever, now: while I've found the Irvine quote that
>begins "An all Ferrari front row is not bad for tomorrow. The car is
>pretty much the same as before the Nurburgring..." several times
>(including Autosport), I still haven't found the all-important
>contextual prolegomenon that you've quoted above. If you have the
>Autosport issue (paper mag) or E-zine quote at hand, please let me know
>the date of (better yet, a hypertext link to) the quote. I've been
>through every online archived story from the Sepang weekend at
>Autosport's site, and I just can't find it. I'd truly appreciate help in
>solving this mystery, moot point though it may seem to some...I'm
>keeping a chronicle of this season, and I hate to miss a direct quote as
>important as this.

From an earlier post, the quote is lifted ad nauseam from the
Autosport of 21st October 1999, page 6, column 3, paragraph 7.

No, I fully expected Ferrari's points to be reinstated and so perhaps,
with hindsight, my recent posts have been as a result of getting angry
in advance and hence quite acerbic. My apologies for that being the
case!

I lost faith with F1 for their ineptitude over the treatment of Senna
in 1989 and early into 1990, and watched incredulous at Senna's manner
of winning the 1990 championship going unpunished. Since then the
racing has been as good as the rules have allowed, but the balance of
sport versus commercial interests can no longer even remotely be
considered a balance.

For all that I still love it, and with no way back and no way to turn
the clock back see little point in yearning for the old days.
Nostalgia is fine, but ultimately fruitless.

Cheers!
John

Barton Spencer Brow

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Barton Spencer Brow » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00


> From an earlier post, the quote is lifted ad nauseam from the
> Autosport of 21st October 1999, page 6, column 3, paragraph 7.

Well, there's the rub then..., the Autosport "quote" is an amalgam
(clearly, as I've just learned from reading each and every one of the
130 consecutive Autosport on-line articles from id=2661 [09-10-99] to
id=2791 [09-19-99]) inclusive: the quote appears -- as at Atlas F1,
F1-UK, F1News, and several other sites -- as two or more separate
quotes, and NEVER ONCE, prior to Autosport's print issue, dated 5 days
after the Sepang race and Ferrari's DQ, completely connected in the way
presented in Autosport's print issue, nor -- NOT ONCE --in the context
of Irvine speaking of the barge boards, or of anything other than a
general, unspecified improvement of the car from Luxembourg on. I have
insituted an inquiry with Autosport's editor as to the context, source,
generation, and authenticity of this print issue quote, and expect an
answer within the week.

Again, it's the same old story of all historiography: those writing
after the fact tend to condense, combine, and embellish -- in a way that
enhances the impact of their story, but misrepresents the chronological
truth of events.

While this may seem mere hogwash and nitpicking to some or most here,
this is a very important issue in a sport that is largely perceived and
propelled through the medium of the motorsports press, and in
present-day motorsports, especially F1, there is no journal more
respected for its accuracy than Autosport. If they have editorialized
where they should have been reporting, they have performed a grave
disservice, not only to their readers, but to the sport.

Bart Brown

Tony Rickar

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Tony Rickar » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Barton Spencer Brown wrote

Though it was a British company sponsoring a British car. I always
associated a degree of national pride with the JPS Lotus - something lost
with the Camel (RJ Reynolds) sponsorship. Very different to the modern day
duo branded BAR - designed to appeal to as many world markets as possible by
a multi-national organisation. The JPS Lotus looked a darn sight better too
IMHO.

Tony

don hodgdo

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by don hodgdo » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

I believe that in the "past", Autosport stood at the pinnacle of F1
journalism, however, in the last couple of years they have sunk to the same
level of the sensationalist, tabloid style press only equaled by the Weekly
World News or the National Enquirer.

don

[|]-(_)-[|]

<snip>
While this may seem mere hogwash and nitpicking to some or most here,

Ronald Stoeh

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Ronald Stoeh » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

John Wallace schrieb:

Well, the nonsense EI uttered during the last couple of weeks certainly
didn't improve my oppinion of him...

l8er
ronny

--
The box said "Windows 95 or better", so I installed LINUX!

          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

Ronald Stoeh

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Ronald Stoeh » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

John Wallace schrieb:

> On Sat, 23 Oct 1999 01:10:29 +0200, Ronald Stoehr

> >Sorry, EI may be a pretty good racer, but questions about performance
> >improvements resulting from different aerodynamic devices on an F1 car
> >are better answered by even a Minardi engineer.

> Why? If you sit in on a fluid dynamics lecture when they tell you the
> answers to exam question will you be in a better position to answer it
> than a professor who's had a brief glimpse of a glass of water?

This has to be utter nonesene, or I lost my English...
You're saying, that Minardi engineer is a dummy?

Oh, now nobody is able to determine if this modified board makes a diff??
They design the cars (or planes, or trains) by throwing the dices, yes?
I give up...

Hopefully not.

--
The box said "Windows 95 or better", so I installed LINUX!

          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

John Walla

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by John Walla » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

On Sat, 23 Oct 1999 18:52:57 +0200, Ronald Stoehr


>This has to be utter nonesene, or I lost my English...
>You're saying, that Minardi engineer is a dummy?

You lost your English and no. Please read it again. He may be the
Einstein of aerodynamics (although why he would be working at Minardi
is then a bit of a mystery) but Eddie knows, has been told and has
experienced the car, the decisions and the difference. The Minardi
engineer is drawing conclusions from his back-of-the-grid car and
fleeting glimpses of a covered car in the pit-lane. NOT very
convincing m'lud.

Eh? Where do die come in? The car was ILLEGAL as defined by the FIA,
the meeting stewards and by Ferrari - whether or not it was an
advantage is irrelevant and an irrelevancy that in any case we cannot
measure. That was my point. Nothing to do with designing the car by
Snakes and Ladders.

Cheers!
John

JVizoso.freeserve.co.u

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by JVizoso.freeserve.co.u » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Yeah just try getting autosport to inform their uk readers that they can
avoid itv advert breaks by tuning to rtl... it doesnt happen cos theyre in
bed with itv...
             jv

--

> I believe that in the "past", Autosport stood at the pinnacle of F1
> journalism, however, in the last couple of years they have sunk to the
same
> level of the sensationalist, tabloid style press only equaled by the
Weekly
> World News or the National Enquirer.

> don

> [|]-(_)-[|]


> <snip>
> While this may seem mere hogwash and nitpicking to some or most here,
> >this is a very important issue in a sport that is largely perceived and
> >propelled through the medium of the motorsports press, and in
> >present-day motorsports, especially F1, there is no journal more
> >respected for its accuracy than Autosport. If they have editorialized
> >where they should have been reporting, they have performed a grave
> >disservice, not only to their readers, but to the sport.

> >Bart Brown

Barton Spencer Brow

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Barton Spencer Brow » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00


> The car was ILLEGAL as defined by the FIA,

the meeting stewards and by Ferrari...

No, John, it was not.

BB

John Walla

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by John Walla » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

On Sat, 23 Oct 1999 16:48:52 -0500, Barton Spencer Brown


>> The car was ILLEGAL as defined by the FIA,
>the meeting stewards and by Ferrari...

>No, John, it was not.

Yes Bart, it was. Or did we all just imagine that trial to overturn
the decision? The five trial judges decided to it wasn't, but the FIA
tech representative, the stewards and Ferrari said it was.
John Walla

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by John Walla » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

On Sun, 24 Oct 1999 08:43:44 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"


>Nothing _needs_ to arise as a replacement.  If F1 has declined then it is no
>longer the pinnacle and just falls into the general topography that is
>commercialised and manufactured "sport".

Just as nothing is perfect, nothing is perfectly level - SOMETHING is
always best. The vast majority of indexes to which you can refer will
place F1 at the top of the pile, ergo it is still the world's premier
form of motorsport.

Cheers!
John

John Walla

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by John Walla » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

On Sun, 24 Oct 1999 08:51:02 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"


>(snip)
>"Nostalgia is fine, but ultimately fruitless".
>(unsnip)

>If you would just like to spread that message out to those whackos  amongst
>us who want to do things like save rain forests, plant more trees, reduce
>hydrocarbon emmissions, rid the waterways of plastic bags....you know, all
>those yukky things that have happened and continue to happen to this planet?
>Tell them that it's no good being nostalgic about what the environment was
>like 40, 50, 60 years ago.  Make it your lifes work, John.  Oh....but don't
>get nostalgic on the way, will you?  :o)

Ah nostalgia, "a fond remembrance of an earlier time in one's life".
You sit at home and fondly remember those trees, see how many of them
get saved by doing that. It's ultimately fruitless.

The odd action or two will save infinitely more trees than nostalgia
ever will.

Cheers!
John

Bob Curti

OT: Ferrari Disqualified!

by Bob Curti » Sun, 24 Oct 1999 04:00:00

The unbelievable stupidity of the tree huggers becomes manifest when you realize
that "Environment" is a completely subjective issue on both sides of the coin.  (The
Luddite-like fanaticism of the Sierra Club, Greenpeace and the rest of its ilk on
one side insist on treating humanity as if we aren't part of nature, and on the
other side of the coin is the rest of the us on the planet who continue to blithely
keep sh%$#ing where we live.).  There seems to be no reason on either side.

There is nothing wrong with the environment that about 3 billion less humans
wouldn't cure, but then that would mean for humanity to exercise a collective
process of thought.  Very unlikely.  We spend all of our time at the same time doing
everything we can to both increase the population and destroy the resources we need
to maintain a livable planetary surface.

The inescapable, objective fact of the matter is that the planet could care less
what we do to it.  It'll survive long after we've created a sludge covered ball in
space populated with nothing but microbes.


> (snip)
> "Nostalgia is fine, but ultimately fruitless".
> (unsnip)

> If you would just like to spread that message out to those whackos  amongst
> us who want to do things like save rain forests, plant more trees, reduce
> hydrocarbon emmissions, rid the waterways of plastic bags....you know, all
> those yukky things that have happened and continue to happen to this planet?
> Tell them that it's no good being nostalgic about what the environment was
> like 40, 50, 60 years ago.  Make it your lifes work, John.  Oh....but don't
> get nostalgic on the way, will you?  :o)



> > On Sat, 23 Oct 1999 09:41:00 -0500, Barton Spencer Brown

> > >I'm more curious than ever, now: while I've found the Irvine quote that
> > >begins "An all Ferrari front row is not bad for tomorrow. The car is
> > >pretty much the same as before the Nurburgring..." several times
> > >(including Autosport), I still haven't found the all-important
> > >contextual prolegomenon that you've quoted above. If you have the
> > >Autosport issue (paper mag) or E-zine quote at hand, please let me know
> > >the date of (better yet, a hypertext link to) the quote. I've been
> > >through every online archived story from the Sepang weekend at
> > >Autosport's site, and I just can't find it. I'd truly appreciate help in
> > >solving this mystery, moot point though it may seem to some...I'm
> > >keeping a chronicle of this season, and I hate to miss a direct quote as
> > >important as this.

> > From an earlier post, the quote is lifted ad nauseam from the
> > Autosport of 21st October 1999, page 6, column 3, paragraph 7.

> > >Speaking of moot points, did anyone seriously expect the FIA to rule
> > >otherwise? The F1 Drivers' and Manufacturers' championships are a
> > >business, not a sport -- though I still believe that on the track and in
> > >the pits, it's very much a sport for the drivers, engineers, and
> > >mechanics.

> > No, I fully expected Ferrari's points to be reinstated and so perhaps,
> > with hindsight, my recent posts have been as a result of getting angry
> > in advance and hence quite acerbic. My apologies for that being the
> > case!

> > I lost faith with F1 for their ineptitude over the treatment of Senna
> > in 1989 and early into 1990, and watched incredulous at Senna's manner
> > of winning the 1990 championship going unpunished. Since then the
> > racing has been as good as the rules have allowed, but the balance of
> > sport versus commercial interests can no longer even remotely be
> > considered a balance.

> > For all that I still love it, and with no way back and no way to turn
> > the clock back see little point in yearning for the old days.
> > Nostalgia is fine, but ultimately fruitless.

> > Cheers!
> > John

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--
Bob Curtin
Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange
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"If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy skin"

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