rec.autos.simulators

Only one thing to do then, get closer to the monitor. :-)
I just can't sit in a relaxed manner when I drive. I automatically
sit up and huddles over the steering wheel to get close to the
monitor. Sometimes during long races (Btw, when's the next Online GP :-)
I try to relax and sit back, but after half a lap I give up and get
close to my monitor again.
--
  -asbjxrn

Actually, I'm not that familiar with video filming, but I've taken up
photography as a hobby.

--
Olav K. Malmin
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Yes. 3D games render everything in focus, which is uncommon for
all the other mediums based on photography. What would have been great
in a fps for instance is that everything with another distance than
where you point the crosshair is out of focus. A bit more difficult
with racing sims though, since the computer can not know where you are
looking. But it is a bit weird that you can look at the horizon and
tachometer at the same time where both is in perfect focus.

--
Olav K. Malmin
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<snip>
<snip>

Hi Todd,

I'm not claiming to be any kind of expert, the amount of video I've
seen of "the era" is pretty small and it was a while ago (mainly
various snippets from programmes giving a nod to the glorious history
of races/tracks/marques). However, I would say that if a Nascar tyre
generates peak force at 8deg slip, then it's entirely likely that a
1967 crossply tyre would be getting near the 20deg mark.

FWIW, my understanding of the difference between crossply and modern
radial construction is that radials use steel reinforcements that run
straight across the treaded area directly from one bead to the other.
Crossplies have the reinforcements running diagonally across the
tread. Radials have greater stiffness so you get more side force for
less slip angle, but on the downside the breakaway is less
progressive. Going to very low profiles and super-stiff sidewall
constructions - as in modern racing tyres - makes this even more true.

Re. your (and other peoples') comments about monitor size, if you look
at big industrial sims they tend to use massive projection screens to
give the FOV *and* allow a bit of distance so your eyes don't have to
stay in close focus. Unfortunately I already tried to suggest to my
other half that an InFocus projector and a racing seat would look
great in our living room, but she just wan't having it!

TTFN

-= mike =-

Hi Todd,

don't worry, here's another one who believes the same. I also believe
that GP3 has it all set a bit too stiff by default ;).

Seriously, the peak value is maybe not so out of whack in GPL, but the
approach towards it probably is. It seems that the cornering stiffness,
which affects control and precision is very low, and probably the tyre
reaches the peak slip very linearly. I'd probably expect the cornering
stiffness to not be this low, meaning that it rises faster at small slip
angles, but that the rising would then slow down until reaching the
rather large peak slip angle, which just might be modelled well. But I
don't really know, I'm just guessing here.

-Gregor

I would imagine tht the RC cars have rather stiff tyres, but when they
are close to the peak value for grip, they tend to stay there over large
slip angles, which is probably why they're so much fun. The same can be
said for karts, which also show a lot of drift, yet their tyres are
relatively stiff close to driving straight. It's probably the ratio
between the value of peak_force/optimal_slip_angle and the cornering
stiffness at slip angles close to 0 that just might be too high in GPL,
while the peak force and optimal slip angle might just be correct.

-Gregor

that's the one.

I don't think I'll be able to explain that properly, really, but it's
all "the little things" like blurring, antialiasing, constant
framerates, colors, the full monty.

the biggest problem with todays computer graphics, imho, is that
they're _too_ good.  too crisp.  we need to find a way to introduce
flaws and irregularities.  the new vertex- and pixel-shaders look like
a step towards this end, but I haven't gotten around to understanding
them yet.

--
Gunnar
    #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo: 2
                                silence is FOO!

interestingly, GT3 does this, but only for replays.

--
Gunnar
    #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo: 2
                 "Det er nok ingen ovn, men fartsm?leren v?r."

Well then your doing well..:) Of course there many aspects that
can change the entire scenario 'i.e. - aperture, pov, fov, fp, film
speed, panning  and much more but it would take too long in a
NG to go into all this.. Especially being such an OT in RAS. :)
Cheers -Thom_j.

|
| Actually, I'm not that familiar with video filming, but I've taken up
| photography as a hobby.
|

|
| > This is 'spot-on' Olav! I didn't know you knew this much
| > about photography aka video filming?? I learn something
| > everyday. See I knew there was a reason for me to wake
| > up each day! :)

| > | Very nice observation. :)
| > |
| > | It's the shutter speed that makes motion blur, but anyone familiar
| > | with a camera knows that the 1/24 second speed needed for a perfect
| > | motion blur is still a too long exposure time. Then again, maybe
| > | cinematic film needs longer exposure that the familiar 35 mm single
| > | picture camera ?
| > |
| > | The V5 got hardware motion blur, sadly, no game uses it, and none will
| > | :( Do the GeForce3 have this capability ?
| > |
| > | --
| > | Olav K. Malmin
| >

| > | >
| > | > (*)  Actually it is often easy to see stutter when watching a
| > | >      movie. It seems to be most evident in slow pans filmed
| > | >      in bright light (motion blur hides stutter, maybe bright
| > | >      light scenes are filmed with shorter exposure times, thus
| > | >      reducing the motion blur?)
| >
| >
| >
| > ---
| > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
| > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
| > Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001
| >
| >
|
| --
| Olav K. Malmin
| remove .spam when replying

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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I'm glad you explained this Olav as when it comes to graphics
photpragphy [of any format] and computer veiwing I tend too
jabber onto boredom for others.. :)

<snipped>
| Yes. 3D games render everything in focus, which is uncommon for
| all the other mediums based on photography. What would have been great
| in a fps for instance is that everything with another distance than
| where you point the crosshair is out of focus. A bit more difficult
| with racing sims though, since the computer can not know where you are
| looking. But it is a bit weird that you can look at the horizon and
| tachometer at the same time where both is in perfect focus.
| Olav K. Malmin
<snipped>

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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What track?  Just curious...

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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Actually, yes I did.  Like I said, I figured it was because I could run at
1024x768, as opposed to the 640x480 I was running before.  I gotta find a
larger monitor...<g>

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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I've had issues with GP3 where my eyes kind of lose focus in a sharp turn.  I
noticed it at Hockenheim in the chicanes, and Australia in the 90deg turns.
The only GPL track I've had this happen is at Monaco, in the hairpin turns.
Something about the scenery swinging around so quickly screws me up...  If I
had access to a larger monitor, then I could see if that helps.

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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Next online GP...hmm...  I was just thinking about that the other day.  The
only original tracks we haven't run yet are Rouen, Monaco, and Spa.  Spa would
be *my* first choice, followed by Rouen and Monaco.  I'll have to think about
it.  I'll also entertain suggestions for tracks to run...

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

You have already received a ton of thoughtful, contradictory responses
to this post, but here's one that agrees with you about the frustrations
of driving GPL and its relationship to real-world driving. I base this
on a long-ago experience.

In the 1965 or '66, I had the opportunity to drive a Lotus 18 Formula
Junior around a road course (the now-gone course outside Abbottsford,
British Columbia) for a couple laps. I wasn't fast at all, but I was
able to drive it around with some measure of speed without spinning off.
If I try to drive what seems to be the same pace in an F3 car, I'll spin
off and lock-up brakes and wander all over for a number of laps. The
experience of driving a real F3-type car was completely different than
driving in GPL.

The driving cues one receives in GPL are not those one receives in real
racing (lateral g-forces, feedback through the steering wheel, sounds,
and so forth), and so to be fast in GPL requires hours of practice to
know how much brake to use, how much accelerator to use, how much
steering to use. In GPL these come from rote practice, whereas in a real
car they come much more from the feel of the car. I don't know how a sim
could provide that feedback, but I do believe that there is almost no
similarity between driving in GPL or other sims and driving in a real
race car.