rec.autos.simulators

stupid licensing ruins everything

Jonny Hodgso

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Jonny Hodgso » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 19:16:51


Hmm... I believe that the general relationships between control input
and vehicle response are the same throughout, although admittedly
sitting in a vehicle does give you extra clues to speed up the
learning curve.  I've been driving sims the longest, followed by R/C
race cars, and 'real' vehicles the least but I'm convinced that I
learnt much that was relevant to 'full size' car control, long before
I was 17.

Driving anything is good experience - *something* will transfer to
other vehicles and environments.

(It also frequently amazes me how we R/Cers will talk about "feeling"
what our cars are doing - and mean it - based purely on visual cues,
perhaps with just a tiny amount of sound.)

Jonny

Jonny Hodgso

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Jonny Hodgso » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 19:23:54


be

Are you talking about dirt, grass, tarmac/*** or tarmac/foam? :-)

(Foams *definitely* have a very slow fall-off beyond peak, at least
without additives - and yes, they're great fun!)

Jonny

Jonny Hodgso

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Jonny Hodgso » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 19:22:09


<nod>, but they're not hurling them across apexes on the limit of
traction most of the time either.  I haven't driven a real race car,
but I'd expect them to match GPL and my R/C race cars in feeling way
too sharp in the linear region, and only really coming alive as you
approach the limit.

And the tyres *are* skinny in comparison to the power-to-weight ratio,
though this is partly just the lack of downforce (what else has 800
hp/ton with no aero assistance?  A very silly Skyline, perhaps?  Ooh
<thought> - a Westfield Megabusa or similar.  Now, is that a suitable
base for comparison?)

Jonny

Gerry Aitke

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Gerry Aitke » Fri, 10 Aug 2001 21:08:45


> Depends on whether you'd call yourself a good driver...

>                     GPLRank
> Gerry Aitken          -5.35
> Mark Jeangerard       -8.87

> Jan./ GPLRank: +10.07 and considering myself "fair" ;-))

I consider myself average...

Track           My Chassis      My time Other   chassis         Other time
difference

 Watkins Glen   Lotus           01:05.53        Ferrari         01:05.65        -0.120
 Silverstone    Lotus           01:28.27        Ferrari         01:29.18        -0.910
 Monaco         Lotus           01:26.95        Ferrari         01:28.36        -1.410
 Zandvoor       Ferrari         01:25.95        Ferrari         01:26.75        -0.800
 Monza          Lotus           01:28.50        Ferrari         01:29.17        -0.670
 Rouen          Lotus           01:57.26        Ferrari         01:58.47        -1.210
 Mexico         Lotus           01:48.09        Ferrari         01:48.38        -0.290
 Spa-Franc      Lotus           03:18.57        Ferrari         03:20.16        -1.590
 Kyalami        Lotus           01:20.86        Ferrari         01:21.24        -0.380
 Mosport        Lotus           01:22.25        Ferrari         01:23.33        -1.080
 Nrburgring   Lotus           08:32.64        Ferrari         08:20.66        +11.98

...I'm poor at the Ring though ;). I'm glad I did a little bit of hot
lapping at Zandy in the Ferrari ;), I think I may take the Red beast to
the Ring for a little too ;).

Gerry

Eldre

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Eldre » Sat, 11 Aug 2001 05:50:21



>Forgive me for saying this, but maybe you're just not that good a
>driver? I remember when I first started racing GPL, I was minded to
>believe that my version had less grip and the clock ran faster than
>everybody else's. Of course it wasn't that at all, it was just a
>combination of poor driving technique and a bad input device.

>My girlfriend often drives GPL, she crashes and spins her way around the
>Oring in about 2:00-ish but never complains that it's anything but her
>lack of skill that's
>to blame.

Some people are just better at processing the limited feedback that a computer
sim gives you.  That doesn't necessarily meen they're a better *driver*.  I
have a lot more control over a real car that I'm sitting in than I do in a
virtual one...

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

J. Todd Wass

stupid licensing ruins everything

by J. Todd Wass » Sat, 11 Aug 2001 08:01:42

  Mark, I've put up something that illustrates exactly what changing fields of
view in a racing sim does.  The last picture is a field of view that matches
your 17 inch monitor and 35 inch viewing distance.  That is, this field of view
would make your FOV and the 3-D world/camera match exactly, giving the best
possible sense of speed.

 http://performancesimulations.com/scnshots.htm

  I agree that it's a good idea to allow users to adjust the FOV to their
liking.  Before, in the DOS days, it was rather tricky since if you used a 90
degree (or other convenient) FOV you could take some mathematical shortcuts and
make things run faster, and might have had to do too much extra work to allow
adjustability.  Nowadays, it's easy to do (at least with OpenGL it is, I'd
imagine DX isn't too much more difficult to adjust.)

Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

J. Todd Wass

stupid licensing ruins everything

by J. Todd Wass » Sat, 11 Aug 2001 08:07:58

  Do you mean they were really hard?  Harder than today's racing tires?  
Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

Gregor Vebl

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Gregor Vebl » Sat, 11 Aug 2001 19:39:20

In fact, after reading this very informative article,

http://www.simracingmag.com/articles/various/01q3/tyre_5.shtml

I am even more convinced that this is so. The sidewalls in a bias ply
tyre (which is what mainly affects the behaviour at low slip angles) are
probably even harder than in a comparable radial tyre, which means that
the cornering stiffnesses of both the radial and the bias ply tyre could
be comparable.

The radial tyre, on the other hand, since its sidewalls may be soft but
the contact patch is very rigid, will probably have linear
chracteristics in a far longer range of slip angles (should the
deformation of sidewalls remain at least somewhat linear), and would
also let go much more suddenly for the same reason.

Could anyone with more knowledge shed some more light on the subject
(Doug, are you around :) ) ?

-Gregor


> Hi Todd,

> don't worry, here's another one who believes the same. I also believe
> that GP3 has it all set a bit too stiff by default ;).

> Seriously, the peak value is maybe not so out of whack in GPL, but the
> approach towards it probably is. It seems that the cornering stiffness,
> which affects control and precision is very low, and probably the tyre
> reaches the peak slip very linearly. I'd probably expect the cornering
> stiffness to not be this low, meaning that it rises faster at small slip
> angles, but that the rising would then slow down until reaching the
> rather large peak slip angle, which just might be modelled well. But I
> don't really know, I'm just guessing here.

> -Gregor

Mike Nun

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Mike Nun » Sat, 11 Aug 2001 19:56:23

Hi Mark,

Re. "why you instead of me", well maybe it'll be me too once I'm
actually getting some pace down! It's easy to be theoretical but the
fact remains I'm still several seconds behind even "average" people on
the circuits I've tried so far. But even if I do find that I'm still
able to read enough feedback when I'm going quicker, what does that
mean for you? I suppose you could try and adapt your perception of the
various cues so that you pick up on the messages that GPL is
providing. But I think it's fair enough to simply choose a different
sim that suits you better. There should be at least one more available
in the next few months with any luck (Chris? Tony??)

Thanks for the info regarding MBTR etc (but I'm still interested to
know what CPR stands for, even if it isn't worth buying) and also the
correction on tyre construction.

Best regards,

-= mike =-




> > SLIP ANGLES

> > Todd, regarding your comments on peak lateral force and slip angle, do
> > you think it's overdone even taking into account that the 67 cars were
> > running crossply tyres? I would definitely expect much higher slip
> > angles with these, and looking at the replays the car attitudes seem
> > to match my memories of film footage of GP cars from that era. (The
> > repeats! I'm not that old ;o) What do you think?

> There's incar footage of Graham Hill lapping at Monaco that is stuck in my
> head that indicates the opposite to me. I'm not well versed in slip angles,
> but the way he drove, while possible in GPL, is certainly the slow way
> around.

> > FEEDBACK

> > When it comes to issues such as single wheel lockups at the front or
> > rear, I can read what's going on from the yaw behaviour. For example,
> > if the rear has locked (rear brake bias too hot?) and you've got even
> > a fraction of steering lock dialed in, the tendency of the rear to
> > "buck" is detectable from the body movement alone. This isn't
> > translation, it feels very direct and natural to me. Even though I am
> > way down the learning curve compared to some around here, I can still
> > lock a wheel without flying off the track, and I can bring it back
> > from the great beyond at least 50% of the time in a broad variety of
> > situations. Most imporantly, the other 50% of the time I know what I
> > did wrong -- I'm not driving blind.

> This is exactly what has me bugged. Why you... instead of me? "-)

> > Another other thing I depend on strongly is the longer term feedback
> > that comes from learning what you can get away with, and what is
> > likely to stuff you in the barriers. I believe that it is possible to
> > build your own mental physics model, and develop a visualisation of
> > load transfer effects in various situations. Decisions such as whether
> > to trail brake on entry to a particular bend become much easier if you
> > can get a good feel for the interplay between pitching weight transfer
> > due to braking and the lateral grip limits (and weight transfer) at
> > your chosen cornering speed.

> There is no other way to learn a car or a course. But come race day, when
> I'm trying to run down Asgier or hold Jan at bay, I want to be able to
> stretch those limits a little. Get in a little hot or jump the cornerm put a
> wheel off while trying to make the track *that* much wider. In GPL I am at a
> loss for the ability to go faster than I already am without terminal
> mistakes.

> > OTHER THINGS
> > Finally, can I also ask what this static***pit thing is all about,
> > and also what are CPR and MTBR?

> Don't even worry about CPR. It's old and something will come along that
> equals it and I'll be sure to point it out. MTBR is Mercedes Benz Truck
> Racing. I've only ever driven the demo but just that was 18 times as good as
> the F1RC full release. Swedish Touring Car Championship 2 is also a good
> buy. Both MTBR and STCC2 are probably best labeled as arcade titles, but as
> far as physics and drive model goes, they are blurring the lines between
> arcade and sim.

Gerry Aitke

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Gerry Aitke » Sat, 11 Aug 2001 20:05:44


> Thanks for the info regarding MBTR etc (but I'm still interested to
> know what CPR stands for, even if it isn't worth buying..

CART Precision Racing by M$, and Mark's right, it's jobs <g>.

Gerry

Uncle Feste

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Uncle Feste » Sat, 11 Aug 2001 21:34:33


> Thanks for the info regarding MBTR etc (but I'm still interested to
> know what CPR stands for, even if it isn't worth buying)

Cart Precision Racing.  It both sucks & blows at the same time.

--

Fester

Zonk

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Zonk » Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:30:45



>> Thanks for the info regarding MBTR etc (but I'm still interested to
>> know what CPR stands for, even if it isn't worth buying)

> Cart Precision Racing.  It both sucks & blows at the same time.

Quite. The "engineer" help with car setup was bloddy brilliant. Why more
sims don't have this feature is a mystery.

Z.

--
Please remove my_pants when replying by email.

Ruud van Ga

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Ruud van Ga » Sat, 11 Aug 2001 23:45:12


Ah, finally some screenshots! Nice. Weird 170-shot. ;-)
Geez, I use 50 degrees for car cameras. Must add an FOV setting
immediately I guess!

Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25
Pencil art    : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/
Free car sim  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

Thom j

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Thom j » Sun, 12 Aug 2001 03:49:23

So tell us what you really think Uncle Fester.. :)

| Cart Precision Racing.  It both sucks & blows at the same time.
| --
| Fester

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Thom j

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Thom j » Sun, 12 Aug 2001 04:11:03

These photos are perfect examples why we are still some time away from
a true PC sim. I go back to the days when "Cinemax" first came out with
3 projectors sending 3 seperate images on a wide screen. The center was
directed staight' toward the screen.. Then projectors 2 & 3 were crossed
right to left and visa-versa on the other.
It appears this would be one of the ways a full 3D 180degree view would
work and the screen was curved past your POV... This of course is only
my 1/10th cent worth..:) Nice job tho' on the photos!!
An Impressed..:) -Thom_j.

| Ah, finally some screenshots! Nice. Weird 170-shot. ;-)
| Geez, I use 50 degrees for car cameras. Must add an FOV setting
| immediately I guess!
|
|
| Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25
| Pencil art    : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/
| Free car sim  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

| > http://performancesimulations.com/scnshots.htm
|

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