rec.autos.simulators

stupid licensing ruins everything

Tim

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Tim » Sat, 07 Jul 2001 20:33:29

On Thu, 5 Jul 2001 23:39:44 -0400, "ymenard"



>> Huh? Commercial success IS related to grabbing the mass populous of
>> gamers. Why do you think there are 5 Need For Speeds and one GPL?

>WHOOOSH!

>Yeah, and Britney Spears is so much better then everything else on the
>musical planet.

Talk about WHOOSH! We were talking about commercial success.
Can you not seperate commercial success (quantity) over quality?
Nobody was saying GPL was bad, just that it's sales were.

Want me to wait a minute while you complete that sentence?
GPL is a commercial failure. Just because it's popular in this little
micro-community doesn't change reality. I'd be more willing to bet
there will be a NASCAR Racing 10 than a Grand Prix Legends 2.

Yea, everyone gets into business to lose money.
Unbelievable.

Tim

Eldre

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Eldre » Sat, 07 Jul 2001 23:10:09



>>Yeah, and Britney Spears is so much better then everything else on the
>>musical planet.

>Talk about WHOOSH! We were talking about commercial success.
>Can you not seperate commercial success (quantity) over quality?
>Nobody was saying GPL was bad, just that it's sales were.

I've often joked that I should write a rap album, sell a lot of copies, and
then use that money to make GOOD music... :-)

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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ymenar

stupid licensing ruins everything

by ymenar » Sun, 08 Jul 2001 03:37:53


Only closed-minded people would think that way.

No, it IS the reality.  It sold within it's own market. It did not sell to
Mr. Quake.  Big whoop, it goes back again to the closed-minded vision in the
*** industry that titles need world-wide appeal or they are crap.

False.  Selling to it's own market <> loosing money.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Thom j

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Thom j » Sun, 08 Jul 2001 03:58:19

Yea but she sure is YummmmmmY!! :o)~

| WHOOOSH!
| Yeah, and Britney Spears is so much better then everything else on the
| musical planet.

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Dave Henri

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Dave Henri » Sun, 08 Jul 2001 08:32:10

  Turn the sound down...record the video..play whenever the wife is around
to annoy her..hehehe
dave henrie
bah bop bop baaaaa
Tim

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Tim » Sun, 08 Jul 2001 09:50:54

On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:37:53 -0400, "ymenard"


>No, it IS the reality.  It sold within it's own market. It did not sell to
>Mr. Quake.  Big whoop, it goes back again to the closed-minded vision in the
>*** industry that titles need world-wide appeal or they are crap.

Jesus H. Chrysler! It DIDN'T sell within it's own market!
NASCAR sold in it's market, Grand Prix sold in it's market, Colin
McRae Rally sold in it's market.
Hey, and how about that? It's the SAME market as GPL.

Are you just goofing with me? Every example you've cited further
disproves you point. I give up.

JM

stupid licensing ruins everything

by JM » Sun, 08 Jul 2001 21:50:56


> On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:37:53 -0400, "ymenard"

> >No, it IS the reality.  It sold within it's own market. It did not sell
to
> >Mr. Quake.  Big whoop, it goes back again to the closed-minded vision in
the
> >*** industry that titles need world-wide appeal or they are crap.

> Jesus H. Chrysler! It DIDN'T sell within it's own market!
> NASCAR sold in it's market, Grand Prix sold in it's market, Colin
> McRae Rally sold in it's market.
> Hey, and how about that? It's the SAME market as GPL.

> Are you just goofing with me? Every example you've cited further
> disproves you point. I give up.

I'd agree with you, for what it's worth.
What did GPL sell- something like 40,000 copies world wide? Or is that an
over estimation?

GPL is an artistic triumph, but it was a commercial disaster.  I doubt papy
could afford the time out of their schedule to make more gpl patches (which
is great) if they didn't have the Nascar series to pull the money in.

GPL is now on budget re-release, so who knows what that could mean for the
near future.
More t1 action at monza for sure :o)

cheers
John

ymenar

stupid licensing ruins everything

by ymenar » Mon, 09 Jul 2001 07:10:46


> Jesus H. Chrysler! It DIDN'T sell within it's own market!

Uhhhh, yes it did.  Everybody who wanted a very serious racing simulation
and had interest in historical racing bought it.

Grand Prix what?

Sorry, the market for CMR is not the same as for GPL

Looks like you don't have much other choice, muahahahaha <machiavellian
laugh>

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Tim

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Tim » Mon, 09 Jul 2001 21:01:20

On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 18:10:46 -0400, "ymenard"



>> Jesus H. Chrysler! It DIDN'T sell within it's own market!

>Uhhhh, yes it did.  Everybody who wanted a very serious racing simulation
>and had interest in historical racing bought it.

Yea, and everyone that wanted an Edsel bought one too, that didn't
make it a success.

I actually disagree with your whole assessment. I think people that
enjoyed Papy's racing sims bought it, and for the people it hooked, it
*created* interest in the era.
I knew of some of the drivers before playing GPL, but I didn't know
all of the tracks or the drivers accomplishments like I do now.
I really didn't care about the era, since I'm too young to remember it
(and I'm not really that young). This was GPL's core failing.
Most software buyers couldn't identify with it.

Uh, Grand Prix, Grand Prix 2 and Grand Prix 3.
I surmised you'd heard of Geoff Crammond, unless you're playing Barbie
Wardrobe Designer between rounds of GPL.

OK, so now it's not enough to like car racing games, and you're going
to pin GPL down into a further micro-market.
Do you suppose the typical GPL buyer owns other software?
I'm dying to know what else you suppose a GPL buyer would purchase.

I swore I was going to let this go, but I find your bizarre train of
thought pretty compelling.
I own GPL, along with both Colin McRae titles, and a mix of other
games/sims ranging from realistic like Viper Racing, to more for plain
fun like Motocross Madness 1 and 2 and NFS: Porsche Unleashed.
I'll confess that I'll play a game that isn't ultra-realistic for
hours if it's fun and semi-realistic. I love Porsche Unleashed, but
don't really care for any of the other NFS titles.

mark jeangerar

stupid licensing ruins everything

by mark jeangerar » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 04:24:37

Let's all forget about the GPL engine shall we? I've never heard a worse
idea. I mean, since we're pretending to race cars, shouldn't we use software
that actually acts like a car? Let's just let that thing die. Just because
you are used to it does not mean it's good. Almost everything about the
interface in Papy games is wrong. Real instincts do not pay off. The games
*particulars* must be learned by rote. C'mon... that's no way to race. The
physics engine *might* be good, but we'd need a whole new GUI to find out. I
say, if they've done such a poor job to begin with, maybe they should design
spigots or something. Sims are certainly not their game. Simulations
necessarily include the human element. Check MTBR or STCC2 or GP3 if you
don't know what I'm talking about. There is actual separation between the
front and rear of the car. You can tell which wheel is locking. Heck, you
can even tell when the brakes are on. I know, you say you can *feel* the
brakes perfectly in GPL. I argue that you have merely learned what it is
doing through practice and are making educated guesses as opposed to
entering a situation and reacting to it in real time. I know we love Nascar
and GP but that does not make the N series and GPL good sims. The fact that
they were the best things we had a few years ago does not make them good
sims either. They are what they are and it's time to be thankful(?) for what
we had and let the next thing come along.

Why don't we use the CPR engine. A few well thought out tweaks and it would
destroy anything available. Heck, it already does.

Where GPL falls flat:
Sense of speed
Sense of attitude of car
Sense of acceleration
Sense of placement
Sense of available grip
Sense of front as separate from rear and vice/verse
Perspective of approaching road

That pretty much covers everything. At that point, who cares whether the
physics underneath are accurate or not.

--

"Racing! - Science for the action minded."

mark

mark jeangerar

stupid licensing ruins everything

by mark jeangerar » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 04:44:00




> Older series lend themselves more to computer simulation as well. Modern
> F1 and Sports Prototypes have virtually no roll under cornering or pitch
> under acceleration or braking. The sticky tires and massive downforce
> mean that breakaway is super-sudden and seeing as the sim driver only
> gets feedback from visuals and sound, will occur without warning.

> - Michael

I don't think that is necessarily correct. I think it's how the cues are
implemented. For instance, I feel that GP3 has 3 times the depth of traction
characteristics that GPL has. The tires seem more alive and I get much more
read or anticipation, even with the stiffest setups the game will allow.
With CPR, on the other hand, it simply feels realistic. There is no
translation, for me, from RL to Sim. It just flows and all my instincts are
applicable. But, CPR feels very simplistic comparatively. Not as deep as
GP3, or GPL for that matter. But a much finer driving sim on all accounts. I
believe it has to do with perspective and audio cues. What else could it be?
:-) The sense of grip is far, far superior and the sense of relative speed
is perfect.

But, no. I think anything can be simulated.  I would help immeasurably to
have rec.autos.simulators beta testing. And that is the truth. I think the
number one problem with games may be that a group of people will become like
minded after a while. In house testing become moot. The vocabulary becomes
stale. If I was in there saying, "I can't tell when the inside front tire
locks because I can't see or feel the crown that it's dropped over, I think
the***pit is too dynamic." and they were really intent on listening to me
and all the others, they would see the problem. As it is, they are clouded
by a lack of diversity in their perspective. Everyday at work I see
otherwise brilliant artists cling to something beneath their potential
because of pride, or over focusing, or a feeling of futility... there's a
million reasons. One guy can walk into the room and say, "What's that
clanking thing?" and break the restraints and put a project on a whole new
road. And save it.

R.A.S. testers. That's the future of sims.

--

"Racing! - Science for the action minded."

mark

ymenar

stupid licensing ruins everything

by ymenar » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 05:54:40


> Let's all forget about the GPL engine shall we? I've never heard a worse
> idea.

What a worst idea Nascar Racing is, eh?

Yep and the new Papy game engine prooved it in N4.

Compared to what?  I'm sorry but the gUI structure in their NASCAR series is
very, VERY good, better then the vast majority of titles on the market.
It's clean, sharp and doesn't have 3d flashy animation to loose the
customer.

The TRI game engine????  Funny.  I guess the WSC brothers really don't know
shite when telling that the new Papy game engine is currently the best
created.

IT'S A REALISTIC SENSE OF SPEED, it was proven mathematically.

Wuh?

Wuh?

Wuh?

Wuh?

Ok perhaps that makes sense.

Wuh?  You just need to adjust the FOV.  Oh wait, they have done it
realistically, like they really see in real-life inside those cars.

I think something is wrong here : your sense of reality.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

?ke Larsso

stupid licensing ruins everything

by ?ke Larsso » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 06:22:24



The sum of this: no sense!
\?l
GPLrank+11,82
"Prognosis Negative"

Jonny Hodgso

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Jonny Hodgso » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 06:35:08


<begin trollfood>

because

It doesn't act like a car?  Opposite lock, oversteer, understeer,
both, 'taking a set'... it does all these for me.  Given that I have a
good idea how a Salisbury diff works (took one to bits once), I can
feel just what it's doing in GPL (for example).

race. The

Hmm... you mean a type of car must be learned by rote, maybe?  Drive a
road car then jump into (say) an LMP-675 and tell me if your instincts
work straight away.

Heck, you

<inspects model race car> The front and rear seem to be connected by a
device called a 'chassis'.  I suspect they had these on real '67 F1
cars, too.

You didn't find the straight at the 'Ring scary the first time you
blasted down it, between the hedges?

Sideways, much of the time...

The back end's wriggling.  That's usually a clue <g>

Okay, I don't have as good a feel for where the wheels are as I do in
a real vehicle.

See earlier comment regarding LMPs.

See earlier comment.

Yup, the distance isn't as clear as it could be (though more
computrons and I could turn up the resolution).

Sorry, but I just don't follow much of that post.
Jonny

<end trollfood>

Eldre

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Eldre » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 07:47:33



>> Almost everything about the interface in Papy games is wrong.

>Compared to what?  I'm sorry but the gUI structure in their NASCAR series is
>very, VERY good, better then the vast majority of titles on the market.
>It's clean, sharp and doesn't have 3d flashy animation to loose the
>customer.

I think he means the interface of controlling the car itself.  Different than
the 'menu' interface...

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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