| Sorry, I have trouble keeping up. What's CPR again?
| Todd Wasson
| ---
| Performance Simulations
| Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
| Software
| http://www.racesimcentral.net/
---
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Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
>| Sorry, I have trouble keeping up. What's CPR again?
> You know the tightest turn at Mosport, the one that looks like a double,
but
> never ends up being one? Out of probably more than 1000 laps there I can
> honestly say I've apexed the second one correctly, only twice. It does not
> matter where I look or how fast I am going, I am always late or early.
> Sometimes I drive back and forth through it. Going up is much easier. Now,
> in real life, that would be one of the easiest corners to get right ever
> time. There is so little speed there and crown, where the turn drops off
> into the following straight, will allow you to line the car up visually,
and
> perfectly every time. Any ideas on why that happens?
> In GP3 I get the same loss of focus in slow turns that every one else
does.
> Framerate?
> I noticed that in GP3 I have a tendency to look off the screen when
> approaching tight corners. That doesn't bug me so much. I just wait for
the
> thing to come back in view. I thought that in GPL I was always looking
more
> foreword. I video taped myself driving both games at Monaco. I kept my
gaze
> at 1 to 2 points ahead at all times.
> GP3 - I had thought that my eyes followed the road. Instead I found out
that
> I turn my head quite a bit and my eyes stay straight forward in my head.
My
> hands follow my sighting points quite naturally and the driving posture
> (which is dynamic in this explanation) is good. I noticed that I don't
tilt
> my head unless I want the car to turn more.
> GPL - First thing I noticed was that my eyes are much higher. Like I'm
> looking at the top of the monitor. Next, there is a lot more head
movement.
> While I'm looking straight forward while setting up corners, my head is
> weaving around. I presume, to combat the dynamic***pit. I'm beginning to
> understand why I'm so off balance in GPL. Obviously the steering wheel is
> much more active, but there seems to be an unnatural progression from the
> eyes to the hands. I haven't been able to figure out what the problem is
> there, yet.
> I feel much more comfortable turning my head to look trough a corner than
I
> do looking straight forward. It seems more natural to me.
> --
> "Racing! - Science for the action minded."
> mark
> > >It just occurred to me that the center of my 17 inch monitor is 35
> inches
> > >from the bridge of my nose. Maybe sim makers should add a little
> adjustment
> > >for that in their games. I can't get any closer and as Asbjorn says, he
> > >doesn't want to get any further.
> > Mark, I've put up something that illustrates exactly what changing
> fields of
> > view in a racing sim does. The last picture is a field of view that
> matches
> > your 17 inch monitor and 35 inch viewing distance. That is, this field
of
> view
> > would make your FOV and the 3-D world/camera match exactly, giving the
> best
> > possible sense of speed.
> > http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> > I agree that it's a good idea to allow users to adjust the FOV to
their
> > liking. Before, in the DOS days, it was rather tricky since if you used
a
> 90
> > degree (or other convenient) FOV you could take some mathematical
> shortcuts and
> > make things run faster, and might have had to do too much extra work to
> allow
> > adjustability. Nowadays, it's easy to do (at least with OpenGL it is,
I'd
> > imagine DX isn't too much more difficult to adjust.)
> > Todd Wasson
> > ---
> > Performance Simulations
> > Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
> > Software
> > http://www.racesimcentral.net/
--
"Racing! - Science for the action minded."
mark
Suddenly, I feel much, much, much, much, much... etc. (You get the idea.)
better. That pretty much sums up my experience at the same corner. Now I
wonder if all the corners that are hard to gauge in GPL are also in RL.
--
"Racing! - Science for the action minded."
mark
Well, that's my point really. It seems as if GPL has intended to put the
road in the center of the monitor at all times. That may be what I'm
referring to when I think the perspective is off in GPL. The road doesn't
seem to go anywhere, it simply unfolds in front of me. The result of it
doing that is probably that I set up, have the road readjust itself under
me, readjust my line... etc. See, I don't just set the wheel and let fly
with my momentum, I have to monitor what the interface is doing and adapt
throughout the phases of the turn. As if the road is driving me. Considering
that GPL seems to force my gaze into the foreground, like before the next
point, I think this squishing of the midfield may be more real than
imagined. Then we get to the nearfield and it all expands to quickly,
leading to mistakes in intended line. More translation errors.
So, getting this activity on to a single screen.... We are going to need
user initiated head panning and headset monitors. Or wrap arounds.
Something...
--
"Racing! - Science for the action minded."
mark
it
Well, if the road's in the middle of your screen you clearly aren't
driving sideways enough! ;-)
Jonny
<snip>
When you say the steering wheel is much more active, do you mean the
onscreen arms/wheel, because I found that one big distraction and turned
it off very early in GPL which then allowed me to focus my eyes more
upon the important parts of the screen.
--
Peter Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77
What is really disturbing to me is the fact the these shortcomings are in fact
just details that could be easily fixed, if only the beta team did their job
(what on earth were they doing, I ask myself)....
GPL's shortcomings as I see them are:
1) No feedback from the game to the driver on slipangle/grip curves of each
wheel. This could have been fixed by using two or tree samples and mixed them
togehter with different weights after where the tyre in question is placed on
the slipangle/grip curve. This includes using different samples for the front
AND rear tires, so that it is possible to hear the traction/slipping of each
tyre separated.
2) The periphery vision cannot be used in GPL as in real life. In real life, you
place the car on the track with accuracy with your periphery vision. This has to
do with the FOV of GPL, and this could be very easily fixed, if the Beta team
addressed it.
3) The slipangle/curve is too flat, enabling us to get just as much grip from
the "far" side of the slip angle/grip curve as on the "right" side. This is
unrealistic, and would cause us all to crash spectacularly and die if we were
placed in the real car doing the same thing. With the correct sound feedback
system, we would be able to spend most of the time at the peak of the curve, not
miles above, or below for that matter.
4) GPL doesn't even have a rudimentary simulation of break pad or break disc
wear. If they did, we would never have seen the ugly driving styles of those
pushing both pedals at the same time.
All these things would make the sim complete, and if the Papy team got to know
this, they would have been able to put it in. But the Beta team were possibly
too concerned about the honour of taking part of such illustrious company
instead of addressing the few and very simple adjustments needed to make GPL a
simulator for another 5 years.
---Asgeir---
I mean, in GPL you have no idea if a tyre is gripping or slipping, as they used
only one sound sample for both (this is totally outrageous, and how the beta team
could avoid seing, or more correctly, hearing this is beyond my comprehension) so
what cues are there to go fast???
One example: When I turn my ForceFeedback wheel in a medium speed turn, I feel
resistance. Because a rolling tyre wants to go straight forward. When you approach
the optimum grip, the resistance decreases. When the resistance decreases, you know
that you are "going over the top", and loosing grip. But I realized that if I keep
turning the wheel, albeit light and weird, I still get more grip, and not only a
little, there were huge amounts of it... Not realistic at all. A normal race car
driver would back off when the wheel goes light, but this is in fact counter
productive in GPL....
---Asgeir---
> Like I've said before - I'm *obviously* not picking up the same cues as the
> faster drivers can. They can tell when they're at the limit, and put the car
> there at will. I realize I'm over the limit when I'm sliding backwards towards
> the fence...
But I got to stand up for the GPL beta team here... it's all good and well
to pick GPL apart after 3 years of intensive use, but let's not forget GPL
was a bombshell when it first came onto the scene. I remember being
completely blown away by the immediacity of the car's response and the
feedback this game gave me. I imagine it was a bit of an eye opener for the
betatesters as well. GPL presented such a leap that arguing this point, if
it ever came up would have seemed decidedly petty back then. Though the
excessive sliding was clear more or less from the beginning, I think
everyone was way too busy enjoying the good aspects of this sim to really,
really care.
Don't forget that it is GPL that caused us to become more sofisticated
simracers and made us think about all these aspects, not the other way
'round.
Jan.
=---
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.
With such a lense, you will suddenly see how easy it is to place your car on the
track with your periphery vision, and the image will open up , allowing you to
perceive all kinds of things.
I didn't smoke any herbs, I am not kidding you.
---Asgeir---
AND, I don't believe that there is nothing to learn from a racing sim in
relation to real world driving. I have been in situations on the road where
I got out of very difficult situations by reacting just as I did in GPL.
"Ordinary" drivers would crash, but I got away. This is very subjective, I
know, but I still have a distinct feeling that GPL has taught me many
things about driving a car fast. It is only a feeling, though, I have no
evidence of this to be the case whatsoever.
---Asgeir---
> <snipped>
> but I do believe that there is almost no
> | similarity between driving in GPL or other sims and driving in a real
> | race car.
> ---
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Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25
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