rec.autos.simulators

stupid licensing ruins everything

mark jeangerar

stupid licensing ruins everything

by mark jeangerar » Mon, 06 Aug 2001 10:37:59


If you were to drop me on a road at 95, allow me to register it, then pick
me up, watch a music video, then drop me back on the road at 96... no. I
wouldn't be able to tell. Maybe. But if I am driving along at 95 and either
lift to 94 or accelerate to 96. Absolutely. And I'm talking about the speed
itself. Not the acceleration between. I'm sure you can do it, and everyone
else here. You probably haven't tried. "-) If you take what we go through in
a braking zone say: Lift off the throttle - start to apply the brakes -
apply full braking pressure until the right amount of speed is off - lift
brake - turn in - apply neutral throttle - continue releasing brakes until
turned. The whole way checking road conditions and balance, making minute
corrections and planning strategy in the space of 1200 milliseconds. The
human brain can both handle a lot, and has really ***en resolution. Guys
like Berger can do it at the limit, within a couple of miles and hours and
centimeters every time. That's what makes 'em experts. I want that in my
sims. It is critical because, as we go through the motions as described
above, we become acutely aware of the slightest details, like the speed we
are going. Like the Gs. All the info we get allows us to be unbelievably
accurate. It's important if we want to drive at the limit. 2 mph could be
the difference between getting the most from the tires or slipping over the
curb at exit. I don't just think sims can give that info. I know they can.

--

"Racing! - Science for the action minded."

mark

mark jeangerar

stupid licensing ruins everything

by mark jeangerar » Mon, 06 Aug 2001 13:10:38


I can not tell the difference between a single front wheel locking under
braking and a rear wheel or wheels locking under braking in GPL. So, when
ever I get in trouble, it takes me a few ms to decipher what is going on and
what to do about it. An unnecessary translation. One requires a lift and
less steering angle and the other requires throttle input and possibly major
correction. 50% of the time I am wrong and as a result I drive slower than I
would be able to given the proper feedback. Even if I do get good at the
translation, understand it and adjust correctly, I waste valuable time
making it. MTBR is a good example of a game that reads well. Even though the
physics are not altogether there, it does telegraph it's intentions quite
well. This adds to the sims ability to allow the driver to drive with
anticipation and reaction. Before today, I thought all GPL drivers lacked
the transparency in WUI (or connection to the physics engine) to drive with
true anticipation and reaction.

No. I don't feel it in any sims, save one. I do feel things in GPL though.
Some of it is right, some is wrong. (More translation factor.) It wasn't
until I experimented with the static***pit that I found out my right front
tire comes off the ground at entry to the hairpin at Mexico. Back in the
dynamic***pit and I can't tell it's lifting even though I know it is. That
goes beyond translation and indicates blindness. I don't understand what you
mean by "when adding the sum of it's parts" but I feel a lot more of the
ground in GP3, as I should with the modern suspension and tires, and the
grip modeling really makes my day, but I do not feel the things I explained.
Those are ideals, what I find invigorating about driving quickly. CPR offers
more of these sensations, more accurately than anything else I've tried. And
I live 4 miles from an EB. I have demoed N4, F12000 and F1RC full games in
my house. The rest I didn't bring back. CPR transmits fine detail in the car
attitude and acceleration department. So much so, I honestly believe that
what it portrays is a suitable substitute for G forces. The weight and
consequence in CPR is way above everything else I've tried. (It must be set
up correctly to override the inherent distractions of the WUI.)

Very, very important. Although, 1 mph might be a bit fine for sims. But
3.... If  the limit of my line and setup allow for a turn in speed of 82 mph
at the first Lesmo and I go 79, no big deal. If I go 85 I'm gonna be
steaming until next Sunday. Unfortunately, a lot of Sundays (league races)
are tarnished by circumstances that I was not fully aware I was entering. In
GPL, 75% of my mishaps are undefinable by me at the time that they happen.
In GP3 2%.

In almost all of my non Kaemmer titles I can apex the turn every time I get
in without mistake. In GPL it's a crapshoot whether I'm on the racing line
or not. That's no way to race and the reason I have a hard time has been
stated by me. Perspective being one of the majors. If you think I'm trolling
because I'm frustrated that I cant aim a car at an object and not hit it,
then....

Yes. I believe I am nit picking in the extreme. But that's how good things
get made. By understanding how they work and exploiting what's good and
rejecting what's wrong. McLaren made Mika's car one part at time. And each o
f those parts are a work of art and very effective.

No. I'm not sure. You bring up a good point. Briefly: Been off the F1 for
over a year and a half while racing in F2 and F3 leagues. Just picked F1 up
again the other day. Learned some very cool things on VROC to make them more
stable, alleviating problems I had before. Have had major hardware
improvements in that time too. Got to within a few tenths of my old times
very quickly and went looking for more. Heard about these newfangled non
85/30 setups people are running now and have to admit, the low power side
ramp angles are kicking my ass.  However, I just throw an 85/45 in when I
want a solid race and that helps my self esteem. For the record, I drive GPL
much more than I do GP3. I have to to be anywhere near the pace. I find it
mostly ***ic.

I think Crammond is just as stupid as Kaemmer. When GPL came out I was
stunned and appalled that they had the audacity to believe their controller
setup was so perfect that it would work for all of our systems with a simple
linearity slider. Would not have been too bad had GP2 not existed. But it
did and the oversight was pure egotism. Crammond is guilty of the same
charge as well as others. How could you be one of those guys and not play
everything that's available? How could you make a game that misses on such
obvious levels? But how many stupid mistakes a maker makes has little to do
with whether or not we choose to drive or delete a driving sim. How it acts
on the track is our only real consideration. Well that and internet ability.
I wonder how well GPL would still be doing if it had the online ability of
GP3.

Well, pat yourself on the back. You wore me out. But I really think we got
something here. Something of value. Anyway, I watched a Huttu lap this
morning. His experience would seem to be transparent. He was driving with
apparently perfect anticipation and I have to wonder if the whole thing
might not boil down to ocular disposition.

Oh... I see... you were trolling this whole time. Ha ha ha. I fell for
it.... What's next? WSC looks like Sega Rally?

Bart Westr

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Bart Westr » Mon, 06 Aug 2001 15:13:47




> > I have difficulties understanding your point.  For me, those screenshot
> > prove even more how realistic your view is when racing GPL, considering
> that
> > you are so low inside those Formula Ones compared to a real-life car.
> It's
> > quite normal that vertical lines (those who define what you see ahead up
> the
> > track) are more difficult to see when you are sitting as low as in GPL.

> I have difficulties making my point because I have difficulties
> understanding it too. However, I think JM may have nailed it. Depth of
field
> or something very much like it. Whatever it is, it keeps drawing my focus
> out of the future, where it should be, and back into the foreground.

What resolution do you play? Moving from 800*600 to 1280*1084 made a big
difference for me. May not so much judging speed but surely in judging
distance. The other major improvement was force feedback.

Bart

Jonny Hodgso

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Jonny Hodgso » Mon, 06 Aug 2001 17:18:19


is. That

How do you set up a static***pit?  And which do you ultimately
prefer / which gives you the best laptimes?

Hmm, do wonder whether that _particular_ point isn't a factor of the
class of cars - I'd expect pretty much anything modern to feel more
precise than those skinny-tyred 1967 monsters.  Still, haven't raced
much else recently (lack of money / time / decent DirectInput
drivers)...

Jonny

Gerry Aitke

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Gerry Aitke » Mon, 06 Aug 2001 19:11:06

A very full, intelligent and honest post :).

On the wheel locking thing, I have no such trouble. Do you have smoke
turned on?

And what's this 'static***pit' thing you talk about?

All I can say is have a braking routine in my head which just happens
for me in GPL like it does in my Kart. If I get the routine wrong I
fluff the turn, in RL and in GPL. I do have to adjust the routine from
time to time depending on circumstances, getting a tow, getting to the
braking zone faster or slower. What can I say, I'm as aware of the speed
in GPL as I am in RL...honest :).

Judging by what you say I take it you analyse your replays a fair bit
then? I don't do that, I just hang it out through the turn and get the
tires to complain :).

Hehe, *** me. But GP3 does feel flat and dull to me, just my opinion
of course.

Well lets hope not.

I'm nursing a hangover ATM, so I might come back to you on a few other
points later, when my head stops throbbing <g>.

Gerry

Gerry Aitke

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Gerry Aitke » Mon, 06 Aug 2001 19:12:54


> Hmm, do wonder whether that _particular_ point isn't a factor of the
> class of cars - I'd expect pretty much anything modern to feel more
> precise than those skinny-tyred 1967 monsters.  

I agree with that, Jonny.

Gerry

Eldre

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Eldre » Tue, 07 Aug 2001 00:15:42



>What resolution do you play? Moving from 800*600 to 1280*1084 made a big
>difference for me. May not so much judging speed but surely in judging
>distance. The other major improvement was force feedback.

1280*1084?!?  What size monitor do you have?  The highest I can run smoothly is
1024*768, but I only have a 17" monitor.

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Eldre

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Eldre » Tue, 07 Aug 2001 00:15:43



>> I'm amazed! So you can't feel the difference between 95 and 96mph in GPL
>> and you really think that's important? Or am I too stupid to understand
>> what your trying to convey?

>Very, very important. Although, 1 mph might be a bit fine for sims. But
>3.... If  the limit of my line and setup allow for a turn in speed of 82 mph
>at the first Lesmo and I go 79, no big deal. If I go 85 I'm gonna be
>steaming until next Sunday. Unfortunately, a lot of Sundays (league races)
>are tarnished by circumstances that I was not fully aware I was entering. In
>GPL, 75% of my mishaps are undefinable by me at the time that they happen.
>In GP3 2%.

Does that mean that you only get out of shape 2% of the time, or that at least
you know WHY more in GP3?  I know I'm not asking that question correctly, but I
hope you understand what I'm *trying* to ask...

I've had the same feeling in race games.  Being unable to put the car exactly
where I want it to go.  But, I see it as a problem with ALL games, not just
GPL.  I certainly don't have that problem in my road car, and I didn't have
that problem at Skip Barber.  While a lot of it may be due to perspective, some
may also be due to controller issues...

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Eldre

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Eldre » Tue, 07 Aug 2001 00:15:42



>Judging by what you say I take it you analyse your replays a fair bit
>then? I don't do that, I just hang it out through the turn and get the
>tires to complain :).

I analyze my replays a lot, too.  The problem is, I'm just going through the
motions.  I don't seem to be able to glean the same info that Mark can.  I can
see that I'm slower than whoever I'm comparing to.  But exactly WHY that is
often remains a mystery to me.  I've only compared replays in GPL, so I don't
know how my experience in GP3 or F1CS2K would be different, or more productive.

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Bart Westr

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Bart Westr » Tue, 07 Aug 2001 06:06:27




> >What resolution do you play? Moving from 800*600 to 1280*1084 made a big
> >difference for me. May not so much judging speed but surely in judging
> >distance. The other major improvement was force feedback.

> 1280*1084?!?  What size monitor do you have?  The highest I can run
smoothly is
> 1024*768, but I only have a 17" monitor.

> Eldred

Damn I'm getting old ;-) It's only 1280x1024 hehe. My monitor is a 17 inch
Nec MultiSync P750, video card is Geforce 2 GTS, CPU is Athlon 800. The
screen refresh is at 85Hz.

The image looks superb, only the chat messages get very small at this res. I
know there is a detour for that, but then I cannot read my best laps cause
the font gets to big in that screen.....

Bart

J. Todd Wass

stupid licensing ruins everything

by J. Todd Wass » Tue, 07 Aug 2001 14:26:01


>> > Where GPL falls flat:
>> > Sense of speed

>> IT'S A REALISTIC SENSE OF SPEED, it was proven mathematically.

>I'm sorry, but I don't think you can prove a sense of speed
>mathematically.  he does have a point, 36fps just isn't enough.

  This always confuses me.  Isn't video at the movies only 24 fps?  Television
is 30?  Yet there is no perceptible stutter there.  I haven't driven a car via
remote control through a camera mounted in the***pit, but it seems that it
would be tough to drive, yet a frame rate of 24-30 wouldn't really be the
reason, would it?

Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

J. Todd Wass

stupid licensing ruins everything

by J. Todd Wass » Tue, 07 Aug 2001 14:28:08

  What's IIRC?  I've tried 170-179 degree FOV in my stuff, and it looks
ridiculous.  The front window is zoomed way into the middle of the screen, the
road is barely visible ahead of the car.  
Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

J. Todd Wass

stupid licensing ruins everything

by J. Todd Wass » Tue, 07 Aug 2001 14:32:54

  FOV is exactly what causes this, IMO!  As FOV is increased in a game/sim,
things look like they're moving a whole lot faster, but the road looks more
skinny, which can make things tougher after a certain point.  I think it's a
good idea to allow adjustable FOV, but the problem is you need a virtual
***pit to keep things really looking right.  (Not a big deal if virtual
***pits were planned from the beginning)  
Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

J. Todd Wass

stupid licensing ruins everything

by J. Todd Wass » Tue, 07 Aug 2001 15:04:54

   I can't tell the difference between 95 and 96 in my real car :-)  I do see
your point here, although I think the lack of depth perception is probably the
factor causes this.  Only fixable with 3-D glasses at this point, as far as I
know.

  Cool pictures :-)  This is precisely caused by FOV.  If you haven't seen the
effects of this, email me and I'll send you screenshots from my sim with
whatever FOV you want from a given point on a track.  Until then, would you
agree that the GPL screenshots make things appear a little further away than
they do in the real pictures?  The crest of the hill in one pic looks further
away, etc..  The road looks more narrow somehow in the distance. This would
definately make it not follow naturally as compared to a video, as you've
correctly said.

  If the GPL screens were to appear exactly like the pictures (minus terrain
changes, sign placements and all that stuff), the FOV could be reduced and it'd
match up perfectly if someone took the time.  However, reducing the FOV would
further reduce any sensation of speed we currently have.  You'd appear to be
moving more slowly around the track.  Also, if the camera in the car itself had
a different FOV, you'd see a rather different set of pictures to compare to.
Seriously, email me and I might be able to show you what I mean.  A 500 foot
stretch of road looks totally different depending on the FOV, and the sense of
speed chages drastically as well.

  Want to see what a 160-179 FOV would look like in a sim??  Probably great
with 3 screens, but It just doesn't work on a monitor set a couple feet from
you.  Measure the angle between your eyes and the edges of the monitor.  It's
probably 10 degrees or so, completely not something you'd want to see used for
FOV in a sim.  

Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com


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