rec.autos.simulators

stupid licensing ruins everything

Thom j

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Thom j » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 04:36:52

Hello John,
I have the same feelings but many just go on&on about physics
 etc.. in all *Computer* sims where there really isnt *any* at all.
Jeez they are all **PC games** Not "real life!"..get a grip guyz
my 1/100 cent worth..flame'on if you need'em... -Thom_j.

<snipped>
but I do believe that there is almost no
| similarity between driving in GPL or other sims and driving in a real
| race car.

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Olav K. Malm

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Olav K. Malm » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 04:54:57


> Hello John,
> I have the same feelings but many just go on&on about physics
>  etc.. in all *Computer* sims where there really isnt *any* at all.
> Jeez they are all **PC games** Not "real life!"..get a grip guyz
> my 1/100 cent worth..flame'on if you need'em... -Thom_j.

Not flaming, but I really can't see the reason why not trying :)

My motto is: GPL is easy, every time you slide off the road
you probably know why a long time before it happens.

I just don't like racing games where what the car will be doing is
completely unpredictable.

But the g-forces missing is a real issue, and I don't think it will
ever be recreated no matter how many hydraulic systems you use.

But for what you can do inside the computer, I don't see the point in
not trying...


> <snipped>
> but I do believe that there is almost no
> | similarity between driving in GPL or other sims and driving in a real
> | race car.

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--
Olav K. Malmin
remove .spam when replying
Thom j

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Thom j » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 05:32:08

Sorry Olav, I didnt mean to give the impression that we should
*Not* try. Hell, I love computer sims and games. If it were not
for computers, online racing, the net' & many other aspects of
computing I would have probably gone Crazy by now as I am
stuck here in my bed many days 24-hrs around the clock & its
right here by me :) PCing is & has been a major part of my life
since 1990.
My point & only point was: all the chit-chat about the existing
sims physics, graphics is just fine but until we 'all! have a true
100% all body-mind senses virtual-reality' sim in our homes it
is all conjecture but everyone please try!! Especially the many
creative programmers out there! I just luv any PC racing and
alot of the PC ***! :)
Sorry bout my poor explaination before! -Thom_j.

|
| Not flaming, but I really can't see the reason why not trying :)
|
| My motto is: GPL is easy, every time you slide off the road
| you probably know why a long time before it happens.
|
| I just don't like racing games where what the car will be doing is
| completely unpredictable.
|
| But the g-forces missing is a real issue, and I don't think it will
| ever be recreated no matter how many hydraulic systems you use.
|
| But for what you can do inside the computer, I don't see the point in
| not trying...
| --
| Olav K. Malmin
|
|
| > Hello John,
| > I have the same feelings but many just go on&on about physics
| >  etc.. in all *Computer* sims where there really isnt *any* at all.
| > Jeez they are all **PC games** Not "real life!"..get a grip guyz
| > my 1/100 cent worth..flame'on if you need'em... -Thom_j.

| > <snipped>
| > but I do believe that there is almost no
| > | similarity between driving in GPL or other sims and driving in a real
| > | race car.

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Gunnar Horrigm

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Gunnar Horrigm » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:33:30


> Hello John,
> I have the same feelings but many just go on&on about physics
>  etc.. in all *Computer* sims where there really isnt *any* at all.
> Jeez they are all **PC games** Not "real life!"..get a grip guyz
> my 1/100 cent worth..flame'on if you need'em... -Thom_j.

doesn't have to be real life.  simracing is an art.  I'd argue it's
almost as much of an art as racing in RL.  it's not the same art, but
that doesn't really matter.

--
Gunnar
    #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo: 2
               "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy"

Dave Henri

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Dave Henri » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:35:16

  strangely enough,  I'm betting such a system is under DEEVELOPMENT....and
I'm betting the *** industry is footing the bills....;)
dave henrie
"Thom j." <
(snippage)
J. Todd Wass

stupid licensing ruins everything

by J. Todd Wass » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:39:53

  Thanks for the support :-)  This is exactly what I've been thinking too.  The
peak grip is probably fine, but the shape and slip angle/ratio *at the peak*
may be off.
Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

J. Todd Wass

stupid licensing ruins everything

by J. Todd Wass » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:42:52

  Not sure, but if I recall correctly it was somewhere in the US.  Next time I
see him I'll ask.  Joseph Kasper was his name.  
Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

J. Todd Wass

stupid licensing ruins everything

by J. Todd Wass » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:47:13

  I get it now.  Never thought of that.  I bet that page flipping with 3-D
shutter glasses on a full size (proper FOV) screen would take care of that
automatically since you're effectively looking into, rather than at, the scene
and focusing the same as you would in real life.  On a small screen, it'd *sort
of* work, but not quite as well.  Agree/disagree?
Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

J. Todd Wass

stupid licensing ruins everything

by J. Todd Wass » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:52:11

  Ok, I think that explains it enough right there.  Now I'm getting it :-)  

  Me neither.  Someone mentioned awhile back a sort of blurring effect that
occurs on some LCD laptop displays seemed to automatically make this happen to
a degree.  Perhaps a special monitor would take care of it.  Heck, that'd be a
big $$ upgrade though.  A seperate monitor just for racing?  Wait a minute, I
forgot where I am, of course people would do it :-)

  I don't get all the new technology yet either.  I'm just a rookie in OpenGL
3-D graphics right now, no lighting or anything cool yet, although there've
been some interesting looking attempts!

Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Dave Pollatse

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Dave Pollatse » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 13:05:46

I think you may be blending two senses of focusing here...
depth of field is caused by the lens in your eye or camera adjusting for one
distance, and objects nearer or farther away being blurry depending on
aperture (F-stop).  So a conventional computer 3d display is like a pinhole
camera--effectively zero aperture size and infinite depth of field--all
objects are in perfect focus (although mipmapping and filtering can give
some depth-of-field like effects within the surface of a textured object)
The other effect of depth is the two images being out of place horizontally
(a la beer goggles) due to parallax between the two eyes (stereoscopic).  3D
glasses of various sorts can give the stereoscopic depth effect, but not the
focusing effect.  The 3D glasses I've tried are problematic because the
binocular depth information from your eyes is in conflict with the focus
information.  However, I think if the screen is "too far away" rather than
"too close", the effect is better, such as at an Omnimax with 3D glasses.

I believe there is a technique where you have a reflective "subwoofer" that
flexes at a pretty high rate, with an image projected onto it from a device
capable of insanely high refresh rates (such as vector plotters)...
basically the woofer acts like a variable convex mirror, so the image can be
layered in depth.  This gets you both 3D effects with no glasses involved.
The problem is to render 60 FPS with 100 depth layers requires 6000 frames
per second!  I think most demos of this have spinning wire-frame cubes and
such, but one could conceive of some *** new way of doing this with
full-motion 3D graphics, such as a graphics card that could render triangles
to multiple depth planes simulaneously, etc, etc.  (Caveat: my knowledge of
this device is extremely sketchy)

However, I think games still have quite a ways to go to achieve even 2D
photorealism...



J. Todd Wass

stupid licensing ruins everything

by J. Todd Wass » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 14:42:55

  There's not a way to get both depth and focus right with shutters?

  >I believe there is a technique where you have a reflective "subwoofer" that

  I've heard vague things about this type of "no glasses" 3-D system and have
no idea how that would work.  It would be fantastic to see though.

  Big time.  Did you hear about the real-time ray tracing that was done at
15fps?  That would have been something to see.  I heard it took something like
15-60+ parallel processors to accomplish (maybe more, don't remember.)

Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Gregor Vebl

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Gregor Vebl » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 16:34:15

Hi Todd,

I just got those glasses a couple of weeks ago, and here is what I found
(on a small monitor). The focusing length itself is, at least on
distances of around 1m and farther not the real measure of depth. The
eye (or at least, my eye :) ) and the brain rather quickly adapt to
focusing on the screen distance but at the same time on a stereoscopic
virtual image that is farther away. The focus is in my experience really
not quite as important as the paralax for discerning object.

Alos, do the following experiment. Write something on the top of a piece
of paper, hold it at a stretched arm's length, close one eye, but then
look at some object just above the top of the paper that is far away
(assuming that you are holding the paper in such a direction ;) ). If
it's bright enough (which means that your iris isn't open too wide),
you'd probably still be able to read the text even though you're
focusing at effectively infinity. Now, open both eyes and do the same,
and you'll have a much harder time discerning things on the paper, as
the paralax would ruin it all.

That's basically the reason why shutter glasses give a rather good
impression of depth even though yopur eyes are focusing on only the
distance of the screen. The brighter the screen and the surroundings,
the better it would work.

-Gregor


>   I get it now.  Never thought of that.  I bet that page flipping with 3-D
> shutter glasses on a full size (proper FOV) screen would take care of that
> automatically since you're effectively looking into, rather than at, the scene
> and focusing the same as you would in real life.  On a small screen, it'd *sort
> of* work, but not quite as well.  Agree/disagree?
> Todd Wasson

Ruud van Ga

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Ruud van Ga » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 19:39:11



Time to reinsert the PC into the television again. ;-)
Seriously, I do lots of work for TV and the fact that PAL (or NTSC) is
so 'crappy' does mean it smooths things out nicely, and things can
look much better. But that's just AA.

Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25
Pencil art    : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/
Free car sim  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

Ruud van Ga

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Ruud van Ga » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 19:46:37



Lol, yes, the first Feel-O-Rama full suit device and chair is probably
created with a sensual CD behind it. Hopefully its drivers will be
compatible with GPL as well. ;-)

Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25
Pencil art    : http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Free car sim  : http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Thom j

stupid licensing ruins everything

by Thom j » Thu, 09 Aug 2001 20:39:54

Sounds fine Gunnar but it still is *not* real life & not even close!
As far as I know it wont be reality in anyome's home for a really
long time [art or no art] either unless you have an extra $1/2mill
to just toss down! So argue on pardner...<g>
Btw: I love all the arts :)

| doesn't have to be real life.  simracing is an art.  I'd argue it's
| almost as much of an art as racing in RL.  it's not the same art, but
| that doesn't really matter.
| --
| Gunnar

| > Hello John,
| > I have the same feelings but many just go on&on about physics
| >  etc.. in all *Computer* sims where there really isnt *any* at all.
| > Jeez they are all **PC games** Not "real life!"..get a grip guyz
| > my 1/100 cent worth..flame'on if you need'em... -Thom_j.

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