rec.autos.simulators

Seriously. Now I know what you mean Frank. I am stunned by GPLs clock. It is
so realistic. But I should have said sense of relative speed. How quickly am
I accelerating? How quickly am I decelerating? How quickly is the car
rotating and in what direction? GPL is muted by the dynamic***pit and
perspective flaws. I would swear I'm sliding at times when I have complete
grip. Other times I think I'm on a rail when I'm drifting off the track. Not
very good sense of speed or grip or weight and consequence. Bad detail.

Sure hope I don't grab Tom Cruise by accident.....

--

"Racing! - Science for the action minded."

mark

--

Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>

<drool>  ;-)

Well, I feel the same in real-life racing if I took every physical sense out
of it.  It's quite difficult to judge your relative speed because you simply
do not have this information when you are racing.  You shouldn't, imho :)
Racing fast will tame the speed sensation, you will become accustomed to
such things.  I see your point, per example...

Take the LeMans track for GPL.  When you start the braking zone after the
crest on the long straight, you will find difficult to judge the correct
minimal momentum you need to turn right.  Often you will underestimate your
speed, but I feel that it's really what makes racing a such great thing.
After all the years of simming I've learned to comprehend each and every
visual titbit that I can possibility reach for.  I personally think that I
mastered Icr2, as each and every visual cue is correctly identified by
myself, and I react correctly to each.  Going back to GPL, it's much more
difficult because of the nature itself of the racing series it simulates.
Same as why modern F1 simulations are so difficult to model correctly.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

GPL is still the one who does it the best.  I doubt in a real-life racing
car without a speedometer you could tell the difference between 95 and 96.
I know I can't.

http://www.hyperstim.com/home_units/news/nurburgreport99/nurb99compar...

I have difficulties understanding your point.  For me, those screenshot
prove even more how realistic your view is when racing GPL, considering that
you are so low inside those Formula Ones compared to a real-life car.  It's
quite normal that vertical lines (those who define what you see ahead up the
track) are more difficult to see when you are sitting as low as in GPL.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

And you really don't feel any of that in GPL? And you really feel GP3
is, when adding the sum of it's parts, better than GPL in these
respects?

I'm amazed! So you can't feel the difference between 95 and 96mph in GPL
and you really think that's important? Or am I too stupid to understand
what your trying to convey?

I think you need to see an optician. I don't want to be rude, but I have
to ask; are you trolling?

Though all your criticism and calls to 'step back and look at it
objectively' do you ever consider that you might be nit picking in the
extreme?

Are you sure GPL didn't give your ego a bashing and now you HAVE to
knock it down to make yourself feel better? Hence your new hobby of
picking holes in GPL while playing GP3.

I mean...c'mon GP3! What a pile of crap.

| I think you have a valid point there.
| Different people probably perceive what they see (and hear) on a computer
| monitor (and speakers) differently.
<snipped for space>

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| Well, I feel the same in real-life racing if I took every physical sense
out
| of it.  It's quite difficult to judge your relative speed because you
simply
| do not have this information when you are racing.  You shouldn't, imho :)
| Racing fast will tame the speed sensation, you will become accustomed to
| such things.  I see your point, per example...
|
| Take the LeMans track for GPL.  When you start the braking zone after the
| crest on the long straight, you will find difficult to judge the correct
| minimal momentum you need to turn right.  Often you will underestimate
your
| speed, but I feel that it's really what makes racing a such great thing.
| After all the years of simming I've learned to comprehend each and every
| visual titbit that I can possibility reach for.  I personally think that I
| mastered Icr2, as each and every visual cue is correctly identified by
| myself, and I react correctly to each.  Going back to GPL, it's much more
| difficult because of the nature itself of the racing series it simulates.
| Same as why modern F1 simulations are so difficult to model correctly.
|
|
|
|
|
| --
| -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
| -- May the Downforce be with you...
| -- http://www.ymenard.com/
| -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
| Corporation - helping America into the New World...
|
|
|

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Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

| Like I've said before - I'm *obviously* not picking up the same cues as
the
| faster drivers can.  They can tell when they're at the limit, and put the
car
| there at will.  I realize I'm over the limit when I'm sliding backwards
towards
| the fence...
|
| Eldred

|
| >Ian P you have described PC sim or any 2D monitor [& it is
| >2D not 3D!] game, photograph, Avi, etc. "Spot-On!" below!
| >It is all "personal subjective perception!" no more, no less.
| >

| >| I think you have a valid point there.
| >| Different people probably perceive what they see (and hear) on a
computer
| >| monitor (and speakers) differently.
| ><snipped for space>

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Ok, I'll have to admit that I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
The car you took the pictures in is probably a lot higher than a 67 Lotus.  Is
that what you're trying to show?  I can see that accounting for the differences
in the pictures, but beyond that, I'm not sure of your point.

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

The main thing I noticed with the photos and screenshots is that in the real
footage, the turns look closer than in the game screens, where they look
like they've been "stretched away" by comparison.  Depth of field is
different? Something like that.

Given the different elevation heights of the "camera" in each, I'd have
expected the reverse to be true.

cheers
John

Even with a 180 degree field of view, you can't have a completely
realistic sence of speed unless the frame rate is high enough.

The problem is that you get aliasing if the frame rate isn't high
enough, and as soon as that happens the scenery isn't appearing
to be moving at all anymore, it just looks like a blur.
(See attached driving simulator below :-)

The demands for a high frame rate actually increases with a larger
field of view (since the scenery is moving more per frame on the
screen the further out to the side you look), so in GPL where the
36 frames per second is far from enough to keep the scenery from
aliasing even with the default (~90 degree) field of view, a larger
field of view is only going to help the sence of speed at very
low speeds.

      _
Mats Lofkvist

Driving-By-a-Fence-0.314 using the One-Line-Ascii-tm image generator,
each new line represents a new frame.

left view at 100 frames per second:

          |          |          |          |          |          |
         |          |          |          |          |          |
        |          |          |          |          |          |
       |          |          |          |          |          |
      |          |          |          |          |          |
     |          |          |          |          |          |
    |          |          |          |          |          |
   |          |          |          |          |          |
  |          |          |          |          |          |
 |          |          |          |          |          |
|          |          |          |          |          |
          |          |          |          |          |          |
         |          |          |          |          |          |
        |          |          |          |          |          |
       |          |          |          |          |          |
      |          |          |          |          |          |

20 frames per second:

          |          |          |          |          |          |
     |          |          |          |          |          |
|          |          |          |          |          |
      |          |          |          |          |          |

10 frames per second:

          |          |          |          |          |          |
|          |          |          |          |          |

That is my point exactly. There are more dimensions to real racing. If, for
instance, you rotate faster under braking at turn in because you've
misjudged your speed and braking pressure, there is all this extra
information to help you cope. In sim racing there is not. Somehow, all the
tools necessary to control the vehicle at the limit of traction must be made
available to the user. OR... the simulation must take into account the
weakness of the WUI (whole user interface) and adjust for it in any way
necessary. Be that scaling back the physics or tweaking the 'drive  model'
(WUI) or some other measure.

--

"Racing! - Science for the action minded."

mark

No, I should probably not have included GP3 in the list of games that I
think include the user in the process. I think GP3 is equal in all points,
but better at only a few and weak in entirely different ways.

What I have done to make GP3 work for me: Make sure to use the patch and,
while it may seem tedious, try to understand what every single function does
in the Advanced Controller menu and spend the time to match them all
perfectly to your driving style. I think the***pit View Angle in the
Advanced Graphics menu makes a huge difference too. I noticed that at one
extreme I would brake too early and at the other, too late. I took a while
to dial that in (more tedium) and have been very happy with the results.

I can feel when my road car is starting to reach the limit first by it's
tilt. Then the tires start howling, then it snakes a little. At that point I
know to pay careful attention to the tires which are very much muted by the
suspension but I can still anticipate a slide. In my kart, on the other
hand, it doesn't tilt a whole lot. :-) I don't hear the tires at all, well,
sometimes. But usually not when it's important. It really doesn't snake but
it starts to float. Then it gets real dynamic, like the slightest
provocation and it exaggerates the response. At that point, I know I'm at
the limit and I try to balance there. But I try to let it go too. Two very
different experiences with the kart being much harder to gauge and drive at
the limit. But the kart is infinitely easier to drive. If that makes any
sense.

The reason I tell you these thing is because I'd hate to be responsible for
you wasting a week on GP3 and hating it. But I think it's worth another
shot. And no Rouen!

--

"Racing! - Science for the action minded."

mark

Then you must be driving all papy sims and not paying attention in RL. :-)

I have difficulties making my point because I have difficulties
understanding it too. However, I think JM may have nailed it. Depth of field
or something very much like it. Whatever it is, it keeps drawing my focus
out of the future, where it should be, and back into the foreground.

--

"Racing! - Science for the action minded."

mark