rec.autos.simulators

Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 3 using Ghost Recon, Nascar 4, Quake3, F/A-18, Flanker Benchmarks Galore....downloads for those who care

Mike_Harr

Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 3 using Ghost Recon, Nascar 4, Quake3, F/A-18, Flanker Benchmarks Galore....downloads for those who care

by Mike_Harr » Fri, 25 Jan 2002 02:06:17

Ok, all of you ***es:

Go and play with your V3/V4/V5/Vx, or Gspot_Force
or whatever before I ***-slap all of ya.  Yo man,
stop acting like a *** and go play with ya games.

:-)




> >Hey,

> >Only things that strike me as a bit odd...

> >If you say our choices mean little to you, why the need to jump into the
> >flamefest?

> >The other thing, if, according to the first paragraph in your review, you
> >don't want it to degenerate into a flamefest, again i ask, why the need to
> >jump into it with everyone?

>    Speaking as an observer, I'd say it's the brainless few that jumped
> up to insist that everyone who doesn't overspend on the latest and greatest
> like them obviously is much less potent.

>                                    -Tim

Robert Jone

Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 3 using Ghost Recon, Nascar 4, Quake3, F/A-18, Flanker Benchmarks Galore....downloads for those who care

by Robert Jone » Fri, 25 Jan 2002 02:31:57

Zod I did not mean to imply its all Nvidias fault the 2D is not up to
snuff.  I did say the Canopus had great 2D  which means its something
in the card not the Gf3 chip.

I too have seen them side by side.  I have two 19 inch Hitachi
superscan elites in the same room.  Two CPUs w same MB.  So I do
compare from time to time.

I have not seen them all though.

I have tested a GF2, GF2MX, TNT2, ATI 8500, VooDoo 2, 3, 5 and several
2D only cards.

The best of the lot for 2D were the Old ATI Rage, V5, and Matrox
Millennium.   At 800x600 no big deal.  At 1280+ I could see a blur on
some of the cards, the GFMX was the worst of the lot.

Since most people don't do 1280+ the video card companies figure they
can skimp.  I have several in laws that have nice computers and are
running 1024 tops with many even at 800x600.  And they do have 17 or
19 inch monitors.  

If you get use to a certain level of blur you will think its normal
ZOD.  Don't be so myopic (near sighted) :)
.

Bob.........

Will DeRiver

Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 3 using Ghost Recon, Nascar 4, Quake3, F/A-18, Flanker Benchmarks Galore....downloads for those who care

by Will DeRiver » Fri, 25 Jan 2002 02:57:17


You're right, 3Dfx didn't hold back the market...because nVidia stepped in
and took over. If you still don't see what nVidia has brought, i suggest you
read Hans' post again.
--
- Will DeRivera
- http://www.numic.net
- http://www.luxt.com
- Hi, I'm a sig virus.
- Please add me to the end of your sig and help me take over the world.

ZOD

Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 3 using Ghost Recon, Nascar 4, Quake3, F/A-18, Flanker Benchmarks Galore....downloads for those who care

by ZOD » Fri, 25 Jan 2002 05:32:11

The Gf3 is the best thing since the V1 and V2. How do you figure no massive
progress?

beyond

Uh.....you are really confused here too...hehe
Nvidia made a name for themselves because they did thier homework...listened
to their customers and actually worked hard at improving on what they had
already done.
It's too bad 3dfx didn't do any of the above.....

ZOD

Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 3 using Ghost Recon, Nascar 4, Quake3, F/A-18, Flanker Benchmarks Galore....downloads for those who care

by ZOD » Fri, 25 Jan 2002 05:40:18

ATI rage? Oh come now...really funny..hehe
You could be right about 1280 and beyond...I don't use those resolutions and
neither does the mass market.
I actually run at 1152x864...any higher and I would be squinting and it's
not because it's blurry...hehe
I really have to laugh at these goobers in here on how they need a 1600+
Windows Desktop.......for what?
It's just comical.....I don't know who they think they are fooling...hehe

Doh....hey...was that a dig?
Hehe......

ZOD

Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 3 using Ghost Recon, Nascar 4, Quake3, F/A-18, Flanker Benchmarks Galore....downloads for those who care

by ZOD » Fri, 25 Jan 2002 05:41:25

...and you guys thought it was nVidia DOS'ing him huh?
Hehe....

ZOD

Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 3 using Ghost Recon, Nascar 4, Quake3, F/A-18, Flanker Benchmarks Galore....downloads for those who care

by ZOD » Fri, 25 Jan 2002 05:45:26

Yeah...this GF3 2D is just crap.........MORON!
Go get a clue.....

Robert Jone

Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 3 using Ghost Recon, Nascar 4, Quake3, F/A-18, Flanker Benchmarks Galore....downloads for those who care

by Robert Jone » Fri, 25 Jan 2002 06:13:01

OMG nice post Mark!  That pretty much sums it up.  Nvidia knows how to
market, they may be hard core, ruthless, hyped etc but they came out
on top.  

Not to start anything new but I have been told by many how good the
NVIDIA drivers are.  But it seems to me everyone is using older NVIDIA
drivers.  I think its nice that they keep pumping new ones out but
they seem to take 2 steps forward and one back.  They fix some things
and break some things.  I had to go back a few versions to get some
games to work that were giving me fits with the latest ones.

On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:09:35 GMT, "Mark Nusbaum"


>I think you're mostly right about this, but you characterization of what
>happened with 3dfx is a little too simplistic. They were a small specialty
>company that built add-on PCI 3D-only hardware for *** and built and
>maintained an API to help make this happen. It was apparent that they'd have
>to make a move to AGP-based 2D/3D cards in order to grow beyond this, or
>even to maintain their position - the future of high-end graphics was on the
>AGP bus, which meant incorporating 2D, and other companies were beginning to
>make inroads into 3D from that position. nVidia was the principal
>competition, and the Riva TNT established them as a high-end OEM presence as
>well as a company that could make competent 3D hardware. So 3dfx put out the
>Banshee, which was a middling effort and really just a PCI card using the
>AGP bus, but not a bad start. Then they followed it with the similar but
>faster Voodoo3, a great real-world, bang-for-the-buck card - $130-180 srp
>for V2 SLI-level 3D performance and great 2D. But at the same time they were
>dealing with moving their boardmaking in house, were trying to develop an
>OEM base, Glide was dying, probably erred in putting together their 3500
>flagship card, and weren't focusing enough on their next generation, which
>had to incorporate all those existing features found in competing cards and
>add new ones and even more speed.

>Meanwhile nVidia was putting out the TNT2, which really wasn't anything very
>new either, but it was much more at home in the AGP slot and the press
>jumped all over 3dfx once it became apparent that it could keep pace with
>the V3 in 16-bit benchmarks and could provide playable 32-bit. Then 3dfx
>wasn't doing anything right in their eyes, as I said in another post in this
>thread. The coup de grace was the GeForce, which was rushed out to follow up
>on the TNT2 momentum. The press acted like its hardware T&L was the biggest
>thing since the invention of 3D, and who could tell since there wasn't
>anything to actually run on it? Anyway, the actual hardware trickled out,
>starting with SDR, then DDR, then 64mb of it months later. It almost wasn't
>so much a piece of hardware as a symbol, and the press said if you didn't
>have T&L you might as well box up your PC and start watching TV in six
>months. The opposition didn't really help themselves at that point - the
>Rage Fury Maxx was too slow and flawed, the Savage 2000 sounded good but
>didn't deliver and then S3 was gone, Matrox was silent, and the announced
>Voodoo5 didn't show up at all.

>By the time the V5 did show, nVidia was ready for the GF2, which was the
>real deal. It was faster, it had enhanced features, the drivers had matured,
>and you could actually buy one. The too-little, too-late V4/5 didn't stand
>much of a chance, and it hardly was noticed that T&L games hadn't really
>showed yet. 3dfx was done already, and the 6000 never made it out of the
>lab. But the death knell had rung the generation before, when 3dfx couldn't
>make the transition from a boutique to a mainstream operation. That the GF2
>GTS was very expensive didn't matter much - nVidia had fully established
>their name, so followed the aging TNT2 with the GF2 MX for mid-level buyers
>and the OEMs to spread their base.

>Since then nVidia has backed off their pace. The GF2 Ultra was just a faster
>and more expensive card ($500!) and anyone could have pulled that off, the
>GF3 came out a full year after the GF2 and didn't represent a quantum
>performance leap, and the Ti thing is just a juggling of speeds and prices
>to make it look like they've done something. In comparison, ATi increased
>the speed of their flagship Radeon64 Vivo last year and didn't even mention
>it - with nVidia that would have been a product cycle! The reality is that
>nVidia hasn't made massive progress in the last two years, much less than
>the two years prior to that. The competition hasn't done that well because
>its mostly gone - 3dfx and S3 out of business, and Matrox quietly having
>withdrawn from the high-end sector after dabbling with one card. But ATi has
>come farther in those two years than nVidia, having moved from the Rage
>128-based RF Maxx to the Radeon 8500, every bit the card that the GF3 Ti 500
>is and perhaps more. But they haven't gotten the driver and customer
>relations stuff together the way they should have for this market, and have
>lost a lot of ground to nVidia in the OEM, mobile and Mac sectors.

>So nVidia made their name by defeating 3dfx, a victory largely based on
>flashy features that wowed the press, and on ground that belonged to nVidia
>more than 3dfx. They have parlayed that to a broad base that now goes beyond
>PC video cards. But the image of them as this technological steamroller that
>cranked out new and better cards every six months is a little inaccurate, I
>think.



>> Still, all that being said, it has virtually nothing to do with the
>> reason why 3dfx went out of business.  The reason that 3dfx went under
>> is simply that nVidia just blew them away in their core market and
>> 3dfx didn't have a niche to drop back on.  S3 also got wiped out and
>> was sold off.  Matrox got blown away but was able to fall back on
>> their niche of high-end 2D graphics.  ATI was the only company that
>> kept within shooting range, though for a while they were only holding
>> on due to their strong OEM ties and low cost.  nVidia simply set a
>> development pace that no one else could match.  Everyone else kept
>> planning on building a "TNT killer" or "GeForce killer", but by the
>> time they got to market, nVidia had already moved on by two
>> generations.  What's more, nVidia Unified Driver approach gained them
>> some popularity with OEMs and also meant that they were able to
>> quickly develop really good drivers for ALL their operating systems
>> (nVidia to this date remains the only company with really good 3D
>> drivers for Linux, being more then twice as fast as their next
>> competitors on just about everything).  ATI was especially bad for
>> this, where their drivers might have worked ok for Win98, but simply
>> sucked for Win2K for quite some time (and under Linux a TNT2 m64 will
>> beat out a Radeon 8500 any day).

>> In short, I don't think that many people can really fault 3dfx that
>> much for their demise, it was really just that nVidia did a LOT of
>> things right and, perhaps more importantly, they did them right now,
>> not two years from now.  Even Intel, who many feared would totally
>> dominate the graphics industry in short order was completely blown
>> over by nVidia in the separate graphics chipset market and was
>> relegated to the integrated graphics market (where nVidia is already
>> making a push at as it is).

Hans Bergengre

Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 3 using Ghost Recon, Nascar 4, Quake3, F/A-18, Flanker Benchmarks Galore....downloads for those who care

by Hans Bergengre » Fri, 25 Jan 2002 06:40:19


> ATI rage? Oh come now...really funny..hehe

Oh cut that hehe ***for once, Zod!!! ATI have some cards with really good
2D quality, my Rage128 Pro were certainly no slouch in that regard, I ran it
1600*1200 for 2+ years on a 19" monitor so I should know.

1152 is a really comfy res for a 17" monitor. I have my father's PC set to
that res, and he hasn't changed it since 98 so I guess he's comfortable with
it too...lol.

Fit more windows on it of course. You know, you're really a dumbass n00b if
you have nothing except a maximized IE window open. When I ran 1600 (new
flatscreen only goes up to 1200, bit of a disappointment but one cant have
everything), I could easily have OE open, a stack of large explorer windows,
Winamp squirreled away in the top right-hand corner plus double columns of
desktop icons on the left.

1600 = plenty space = niice for the power user. You wouldn't know anything
about that, though... ;-)

 Bye!
/HB.

Gonz

Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 3 using Ghost Recon, Nascar 4, Quake3, F/A-18, Flanker Benchmarks Galore....downloads for those who care

by Gonz » Fri, 25 Jan 2002 06:52:30




> > All this talk about 3Dfx "holding back" the 3D market/development is a
> joke
> > IMO.  Where exactly is the advancement since 3Dfx is now gone?  Let's
see,
> > the industry now wants you to pay $300+ to get decent frame rates in
newer
> > and still in development games with all the eye candy turned up.  IMO we
> > would have better and faster advancement had 3dfx stayed in business.

> > Where's the advancement?...

> > I don't see it yet.

> You're right, 3Dfx didn't hold back the market...because nVidia stepped in
> and took over. If you still don't see what nVidia has brought, i suggest
you
> read Hans' post again.

Who?

nVidia most not have brought much since you do not seem to even want to
comment on it.  Sometimes silence can be more revealing than words huh?

Robert Jone

Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 3 using Ghost Recon, Nascar 4, Quake3, F/A-18, Flanker Benchmarks Galore....downloads for those who care

by Robert Jone » Fri, 25 Jan 2002 07:32:55

Hans you make some good points but so does Pierre.  His article is
pretty accurate as far as I can tell and many people out there have
just enough money to get a new CPU or CPU/MB/RAM but that extra
250.00+ for the video card is going to blow the budget.

I was in the same situation but was lucky enough that a buddy traded
me a Radeon 8500 for a TNT2.  Yes he knew it was a rip off but he is
loaded and it was his office cpu which was crashing.  I fixed the
crash and got a new card for the work.

Anyway,  I found out through testing that the  ATI offered me zero
gains in performance and a step backward in game compatibility and
more crashes.   If I were to fork out 300.00 for this card thinking it
might boost my tired old PIII 650/256ram I would be for a major
disappointment.

I guess the question is which is better a V5 and say a PIII 1000+ or a
ATI/GF3 and a PIII 650?   Right now its the V5 + PIII1000+  (or maybe
new mb and XP1800+ & V5).

If I were to spend 300.00 right now there is no question as to where
to put the beans. cpu, ram, mb then video.

The said part is I still have the Radeon in the box.  POS.   I want
new DRIVERS, ATI CAN YOU READ THIS???????

Ok ZOD time to chime in with "shudda got a GF3"  I would have grabbed
one in a heartbeat for the tnt2 but beggars can't be choosey, hehe....




>> hehe...Operation Flashpoint genius is one of the top selling games in
>> the US and its a Glide game...

>Yeah, tell me when you see a pattern emerging of great, best-selling Glide
>games coming out on the market. There's always the oddball example to make a
>grab for when you're a zealot, isn't there?

>> oopsy those facts slapping you upside
>> the head again.

>Flukes aren't facts dude. But you wouldn't understand, since you're a zealot
>blind to all things fact.

>> In regards to what you read, admitting you have read the article is
>> makes it worse for you not better. Because now you admit to no
>> comprehension of what you have read.

>I think it's you showing lack of comprehension. You attack me for pointing
>out your "article" was not about if 3dfx's FSAA is the best or not, when
>even the quotes you fling at me say nothing of the sort. You're a rather
>bizarre person methinks. Go grow a brain, and some manners.

>> Both ripped directly from the review...goof.

>Yeah, so what? I read em both the first time round. If you're gonna go on
>with these silly personal attacks, at least be logical and consistent about
>it.

>> I would respond to the rest of your drivel but its to much effort.

>Yeah, I wouldn't expect a zealot like you being able to accept any facts not
>agreeing with your personal religion. Go get a life, video cards aren't
>deities you know.

> Bye!
>/HB.

Will DeRiver

Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 3 using Ghost Recon, Nascar 4, Quake3, F/A-18, Flanker Benchmarks Galore....downloads for those who care

by Will DeRiver » Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:14:56




> > You're right, 3Dfx didn't hold back the market...because nVidia stepped
in
> > and took over. If you still don't see what nVidia has brought, i suggest
> you
> > read Hans' post again.

> Who?

> nVidia most not have brought much since you do not seem to even want to
> comment on it.  Sometimes silence can be more revealing than words huh?

Silence? Hardly...it's called, "why should i have to type it all out when
someone else already has". But...since you've failed to read previous posts
in this thread, i'll copy|paste a little portion of what was said...

"Of course no, since they [3Dfx] were still the market leaders, and
developers aimed
at voodoo-level performance. That meant 16-bit everything and blurry 256*256
textures. That's exactly what I meant by holding back the revolution, since
3dfx refused to change with the times feature-wise apart from a few
insignificant details from the first voodoo graphics in 96, all the way up
until the V5 in spring 99. John Carmack publically lamented the fact in his
.plan that features he discussed with the company back when the V2 was in
development had YET TO SHOW UP in a 3dfx chipset when the company went bust
in 2000! I think that pretty much proves my point."

Enter nVidia, who intruduces 32 bit color, larger texture support and
more...suddenly games start coming out with those features and are now
mainstream. It is unfortunate that 3Dfx seemed to take the stance that they
were invincible and refused to make much progress with their cards as they
had some very good hardware. I think something even as simple as 32 bit
color and larger textures would have helped them out tremendously.

At this point, this thread has wondered so far off topic, it's pretty funny.
lol. The point Pierre was making, i believe, still stands. For more people
who have the V5, an upgrade isn't totally essential. It runs a decent
portion of games adequately still. However, IMO, people coming from any
other card would be foolish to buy a V5 over the current crop of cards.
--
- Will DeRivera
- http://www.numic.net
- http://www.luxt.com
- Hi, I'm a sig virus.
- Please add me to the end of your sig and help me take over the world.

Never anonymous Bu

Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 3 using Ghost Recon, Nascar 4, Quake3, F/A-18, Flanker Benchmarks Galore....downloads for those who care

by Never anonymous Bu » Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:51:06


spake thusly  

I'm running a GF2/MX200,  and see NO difference from an ATI Radeon
(from what little time I could GET it to run without locking up!).

I've used several ATI cards, and some looked slightly better than the
TNT2 I also used, but mostly the look exactly the same.

And I AM running at 1280x1024 on a 19" monitor.

To reply by email, remove the XYZ.

Lumber Cartel (tinlc) #2063. Spam this account at your own risk.

It's your SIG, say what you want to say....


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