rec.autos.simulators

Don't forget to check out the Clinton body count while you're there.
I think he's since added a Bush one, too. =)

Jason

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Fester

There is a better way, for the enlightened.
http://www.racun.tk/

Bush sure doesn't look surprised or shocked.  Why is that?  Strange
reaction he had...

LOL!!

--

Fester

There is a better way, for the enlightened.
http://www.racun.tk/

AFAIK, the flow of oil from the Persian Gulf isn't any less now than it was
before the Gulf War. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating going to war
right now to protect oil production. My original statements about going to
war over oil was a more general one aimed at what seems to be a prevalent
idea about the relative (un)importance of oil.

True that sanctions won't overthrow his regime and they hurt the civilian
population greatly (and I'm sure he is getting some amount of oil out of the
country anyways). But the more oil you let him control the export of, the
more opportunity he has to rebuild his war machine at an accelerated pace.
So, the UN sanctions against Iraq aren't somethng that I fully support, yet
I won't fully condemn them either. Saddam does need to be kept in as small a
box as possible. He has shown that he is a direct threat to the flow of oil
from the Persian Gulf and he must never be allowed to regain that position
ever again. Saddly, the Iraqi citizens happen to be caught in the same box
and as always, the people on the bottom always suffer the most.

That is what I meant by not having done all their homework. If they want to
remove Saddam because he is a terrorist threat, then they need to find and
clearly show the links. I guess they will try to gather as much evidence as
they can to make the case that he is still developing weapons of mass
destruction and paint him as a threat from that angle. We'll just have to
wait and see how the inspections play out. But if they can produce credible
evidence that he is a threat again, I would support actions to remove the
threat.

Yes, I understand that in the past he hasn't supported fundamentalists (like
you say, he even waged war against some). But who knows? Since the Gulf War,
maybe Saddam and Bin Laden have adopted that "Enemy of my Enemy..."
understanding. Stranger things have been known to happen...

db

Hmm, well, there could still be a trade embargo limiting what he could
import, AFAIK Iraq doesn't really have the heavy industry needed to
manufacture tanks and planes in large numbers and that sort of weaponry
isn't something that could be smuggled in easily either, hence there's
no way he could rebuild his armies to their former glory without anyone
noticing, furthermore, there are few nations that would be willing to
provide him with said weapons even if he could afford to pay for them,
none of them have borders to Iraq

And as far as I'm concerned we're we're only adding to their misery with
these sanctions without gaining much, if anything, from it, but that's
just me I guess

What I don't get, nobody really wants to overthrow Saddam, even Dubya
has stepped down from saying that now, because there's no clear
opposition in Iraq and there's really noone to replace the bastard if he
was to be removed, so who would rule Iraq if the UN removes him from
power ?

I'd bet there be an uproar amongst muslims all over the world as soon as
the first infidel soldier sets foot in Baghdad, this isn't just any old
village we're talking about here, as I'm sure you're well aware of :-),
so not only would we need muslims to throw him out of Baghdad, but we'd
need to find "neutral" muslims to rule Iraq until some sort of home
grown government could be put into place, and your guess is as good as
mine as to how long that could take in a country which has few if any
traditions for democracy by any standards, at least in recent times, and
then we come back to the oil.....who gets to decide over the large oil
reservoirs in Iraq ?

And the there are the Kurds who flat out refuses to be a part of Iraq
with or without Saddam, they want to be a free and independent
nation....

Can you imagine the nightmare ?

We could do it the old fashioned way of course, damn the torpedoes and
full steam ahead and see what happens....my prediction would be that Al
Qaeda's membership numbers would rise quite rapidly and that's something
I *really* don't want to see happening as he will strike anywhere
against anyone using whatever means he thinks is appropriate

With Saddam you know what you're dealing with, a megalomaniac power
monger who actually has something to lose, the absolute power over the
lands he's ruling today, he would most likely only use weapons of mass
destruction as a last resort of self defense, Bin Laden and his
followers won't think twice about using a nuclear war head if it suits
their plans and unlike Saddam he has a band of absolutely loyal
followers willing to whatever he wants from them, whereas Saddam's
soldier will surrender at first opportunity as they're not willing to
die for him

Scary thought indeed .....

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

I guess there are all different flavors of sanctions that could be imposed.
But one thing to remember is the more complex they are, the more difficult
it is to enforce them. And being the fundamentalist that I am, I like to
attack a problem as close to the root as possible. So my first impulse is to
cut of the cash inflow.

You pretty much describe the situation as I see it also (thanks for saving
me all that typing, heheh). Which is the reason why I said, "remove the
threat." Depending on what our intelligence develops in Iraq, that may or
may not mean removing Saddam from power. Obviously, the quick removal of
Saddam would be the ideal outcome, but we may not be able to massage the
situation to where it would be feasible to do that anytime soon. IMO it is
still a long term goal. But we still need to keep the pressure up, keep
working the problem, and make sure that we are prepared to take advantage of
any opportunities that may present themselves.

db

"Goy Larsen"

     Wasn't one of Japan's motivations for war against the USA, oil?
dave henrie

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I envy you! While I do most in-town travelling by bike whenever
possible, a ***ily stupid and expensive German railroad
network leaves me with no alternative but to commute by car
(about 50km each way). I try to work from home when possible,
but riding the bike is more fun even in bad weather (there are
clothes for that, you know ;-)

cheers,

uwe

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Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.racesimcentral.net/
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Put it simply for you, would you rather say you had been beat up by a
5 year old girl or a 250 pound giant of a man. Oddly enough most of
the world prefers to claim a 5 year old girl did that.

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