rec.autos.simulators

Legal Freon Substitute

Lloyd R. Park

Legal Freon Substitute

by Lloyd R. Park » Tue, 02 Jul 1996 04:00:00

Organization: Emory University
Distribution:

:
: Of course, left wing views are better than right wing views, right?  Your statement has
: some fairly obvious errors.  What has actually been proven is that under certain
: circumstances, CFCs _can_ destroy ozone.  

Those circumstances being having ozone, CFCs, and uv light in the
stratosphere.

: It has been _theorized_ that CFCs
: _may_ contribute to the size of the ozone hole (of course, it has also been theorized
: that the size of the hole is related to sunspot activity, but that doesn't meet the criteria
: for the great internationally acclaimed scientist, Algore).

Wrong.  We have hard data showing CFCs are responsible for the ozone
hole, as well as an accepted theory to explain it.  Sure, solar activity
increases the rate of the reaction due to more uv light, but blaming the
ozone hole on solar activity is like blaming your digestive enzymes for
getting fat!
:
: Actually, under the Constitution, it could be somewhat simpler than this.  The
: Constitution spells out what the Federal Government can do (which, bye the way is
: somewhat less than what they are doing in many areas) and gives any remaining
: powers to the state.  In _my_ memory, Arizona is the first state in a long time to
: exercise those Constitutional powers.

Wrong again.  First, we have a treaty, and under the Constitution,
treaties are given equal weight with the Constitution (which makes them
superior to any state law).  Secondly, this directly affects interstate
commerce.

Lloyd R. Park

Legal Freon Substitute

by Lloyd R. Park » Tue, 02 Jul 1996 04:00:00

: A theory is mere conjecture.

No it is not.  A hypothesis is.  A theory is an explanation currently
accepted by the scientific community because it has been tested
repeatedly and not disproven.  Almost any freshman science class will
cover this the first day.

: It is not fact as you would like it to be. Speculation is
: all the EPA has. The EPA can spout out as many numbers as they want. The fact of the
: matter is, a CFC molecule is much heavier than oxygen. It can't travel that far.

Dumb.  We've measured CFCs in the stratosphere.  You know nothing about
fluids.  Why isn't all the CO2 at ground level suffocating us?  It's
heavier than air.  Why isn't all the NaCl at the bottom of the sea?  It's
heavier than water.

: As for
: engineers: they seem to know a hell of a lot more than you. It is easy to target
: something that doesn't fight back. R-12 is harmless.

Not to ozone.

: R-134a is oil based.

Wrong.  Both are.  R-12 is CF2Cl2.  R134 is C2H2F4.  Both are hydrocarbon
based.

: That has the
: potential to do more harm than R-12.

To what?  This is pure bs.

: If you are so concerned about the environment, stop
: driving your car. Talking about the evironment is one thing. Doing something is entirely
: different. Since you are on the computer, you are polluting the environment. Electricity
: is generated by burning coal. The EPA has many other things it could be doing. R-12 is
: just another way to stick it to the American people for more cash.

Polluting is different from destroying the ozone layer.  (Take a science
course.)  

Jerry Bransfor

Legal Freon Substitute

by Jerry Bransfor » Tue, 02 Jul 1996 04:00:00

Would you mind it TERRIBLY if you moved your scientific theory
discussion to some non-automotive oriented newsgroup such as
alt.science.ozone.wonk or somewhere similar?  There's REALLY no need to
continue your science theory arguments on this type newsgroup, is there?
--
Jerry Bransford
PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P.
The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

Bryon La

Legal Freon Substitute

by Bryon La » Tue, 02 Jul 1996 04:00:00




> But it HAS been proven CFCs destroy the ozone layer.  Have you read ANY

        It has been shown mathematically that CFC's can deplete the ozone
layer.  What has not been shown is from where they come.

bryon
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hired Craig Livingstone.
Bryon Lape - currently living somewhere close to 35 57 38 N, 83 55 15 W

John He

Legal Freon Substitute

by John He » Tue, 02 Jul 1996 04:00:00



>:
>: Theories are _not_ necessisarily true.  

>Correct.  But by the time an explanation has been accorded the status of
>"theory," it has been tested numerous times and not disproven and so is
>accepted as the correct explanation.

>: They are simply valid so long as no
>: one can prove them wrong.  The _problem_ with this is that the subject
under
>: discussion seems to have no one trying to prove it wrong.  Rather, those
most
>: prominent supporters are spending huge sums of (our) money trying to prove
it
>: right!

>Wrong.  As you just pointed out, you can never prove a theory right.  The
>money spent is on data collection (which is neutral), and all the data
>collected supports the theory.  Not one iota of data tends to disprove it.

>:
>: One of the first things ever learned is to try to break down the theory
before
>: supporting it.

>No, one of the first things learned is collect data and look at it.  If
>it doesn't disprove a theory, it's foolish to say the theory is wrong and
>even more foolish to cry that the theory hasn't been proven.

Of course, the one thing wrong with this is that people are collecting the
data.  The data collected must meet specific parameters in order to be valid
data.  Those parameters have been determined by the people collecting the
data.

In short, statistics never lie;  but, liars can take statistics.  In order to
get the _complete_ truth, one must first be smart (and honest) enough to ask
the right questions.  As with most poles, the questions asked determine the
response (results).  The studies done, if directed to proving the theory, will
either not be broadcast when they fail or are designed to provide _only_
supporting evidence.  This is not scientific!

The only problem I have with what this thread has turned into is what does it
have to do with legal substitutes for Freon and/or autos?

BOsteen3

Legal Freon Substitute

by BOsteen3 » Tue, 02 Jul 1996 04:00:00


writes:

Thank you I hope they take it to another group.

Mel Lamme

Legal Freon Substitute

by Mel Lamme » Wed, 03 Jul 1996 04:00:00

SNIP

And in the interest of harmony or Saturns or something related to
cars, this old industrial engineer proposes we drop the whole thread.
I promise to *always* snip any follow-up posts if you and Lloyd will
stop the Freon debate.  Let's debate oil change frequencies or how
many Saturn mechanics does it take to change brake rotors or
something.  :)

--Mel--Waving
96 SL2m LtGn/Gr AC CC ABS
TC AU PW PL KE T2W NG

Mel Lamme

Legal Freon Substitute

by Mel Lamme » Wed, 03 Jul 1996 04:00:00


>USENET BONEHEAD REPLY FORM (version 78.7)
>--

>Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences
>Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/
>Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick

Is that the Eric T. Busch who is famous for his being elected
policeman of the NGs?
--Mel--Waving
96 SL2m LtGn/Gr AC CC ABS
TC AU PW PL KE T2W NG
Jerry Bransfor

Legal Freon Substitute

by Jerry Bransfor » Wed, 03 Jul 1996 04:00:00



> SNIP

> >The only problem I have with what this thread has turned into is what does it
> >have to do with legal substitutes for Freon and/or autos?

> And in the interest of harmony or Saturns or something related to
> cars, this old industrial engineer proposes we drop the whole thread.
> I promise to *always* snip any follow-up posts if you and Lloyd will
> stop the Freon debate.  Let's debate oil change frequencies or how
> many Saturn mechanics does it take to change brake rotors or
> something.  :)
> It's about time!  This discussion stopped being of interest to the vast

majority on these newsgroups a LONG time ago!
--
Jerry Bransford
PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P.
The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!
j..

Legal Freon Substitute

by j.. » Wed, 03 Jul 1996 04:00:00




>:
>:
>: I'll have to agree with Gene,  I work in the scientific community and
>: there are alot of people that just want the money for their half baked
>: ideas.  Interesting thing about the ozone layer is that ham radio uses
>: the ozone layer for bouncing signals off.  Surprisingly the radio
>: propagation is dependent on sun spot activity which is virtually nill
>: right now, but in a few years propagation is supposed to increase
>: because the sun spots will return.  At the same time there are
>: scientists who say the ozone hole will be reducing by the year 2000
>: because of all the steps taken for CFC removal.  Makes you wonder!
>:

>Wrong.  Ham radio signals bounce off the ionosphere, not the ozone
>layer.  Ozone is transparent to radio waves.

>And the crackpots are those still claiming CFCs don't destroy the ozone,
>in spite of overwhelming hard data, accepted theories, and a Nobel Prize
>to the originators.

I'll keep it simple, but you can always research it yourself:
1) CFCs have been found in the ozone layer
2) high energy emissions break down CFCs
3) what goes up also comes down
4) its a good thing for number 3 or volcanic emissions would have killed us
all, because one year (don't remember the year) volcanic emissions completely
eliminated the ozone layer over the South Pole (It came back, possibly due to
the theory that such emissions are rained out of the atmosphere.  In my
opinion both scenarios are happening)
5) ozone reacts with free Cl from CFCs being broken down
6) the resultant ClO is also broken down an ClO or ozone is re-formed
7) ozone in the ozone layer is not static, but is constantly being broken down
and reformed
8) ozone levels have been measured for less than 50 years, and the methods of
measuring it have changed within the last ten years
9) If high energy makes it past the ozone layer, the high energy will cause
reactions at lower levels in the atmosphere, which cause the energy to be
dispersed anyway.

Opinions:
1) CFCs may marginally affect the ozone layer, but not nearly to the extent
that natural emissions do
2) The CFCs in the atmosphere will be broken down when they enter the ozone
layer, where it will be broken into its base elements which will eventually
move out of the ozone layer and be rained out of the atmosphere
3) This hasn't been studied globally for nearly long enough or consistently
enough to make scientific decisions (studies have been location or spot
studies, not comprehensive atmospheric analyses).  Study the scientific method
if you disagree.
4) Somebody jumped the gun on banning CFCs, although I definitely believe in
recycling and conservation
5) Don't believe everything you read (including my stuff; go research it
yourself.  The rags don't count.  I heard that Bob's racing forum said that
CFCs are bad for the environment around the eyes because the cold blast can
freeze the suckers right out, and was taken out of context and printed in the
New York Times as 'informed sources reveal that CFCs are harmful to the
environment'.  BTW the preceding sentence was a story, an example.  It was not
true.  Read professional journals and realize you are getting biased opinions
even then.  Read enough and you can form an intelligent opinion, not
regurgitate headlines.  This is not meant to be a slam on anyone.)
6) global warming or cooling as a result of CFCs is a myth.  I believe massive
scale deforestation without replanting (China, the Amazon, etc) would be a
more likely culprit

One journal I read really slammed CFC vs. ozone research because grants were
only being issued for studies on 'how CFCs contribute to the depletion of the
ozone layer'.  One sided study is predujicial.
--
my opinions are mine and not necessarily those of my employer
--

John He

Legal Freon Substitute

by John He » Wed, 03 Jul 1996 04:00:00


Jerry, you have said this enough to become a nuisance.  If you don't want to
read or be reminded of it then kill the thread.  While this may not be the
proper forum, there is obviously interest in it, or it wouldn't have over a
100 responses/rebuttals/insults (chose one).

Jerry Bransfor

Legal Freon Substitute

by Jerry Bransfor » Wed, 03 Jul 1996 04:00:00



> >Would you mind it TERRIBLY if you moved your scientific theory
> >discussion to some non-automotive oriented newsgroup such as
> >alt.science.ozone.wonk or somewhere similar?  There's REALLY no need to
> >continue your science theory arguments on this type newsgroup, is there?
> >--
> >Jerry Bransford
> >PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P.
> >The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

> Jerry, you have said this enough to become a nuisance.  If you don't want to
> read or be reminded of it then kill the thread.  While this may not be the
> proper forum, there is obviously interest in it, or it wouldn't have over a
> 100 responses/rebuttals/insults (chose one).

Yes, and you are obviously not interested in whether or not what you
want to discuss relates to the newsgroup's preferred subject matter.  
And, the VAST majority of postings have been yours, you are the one who
is keeping it alive with your continued arguments.  CONTINUED ozone
depletion discussion is simply not automotive related and it shouldn't
be here.  Simple as that.  If you want to argue scientific ozone theory,
take it where it is appropriate or take it private.  Perhaps we should
simply forget about keeping subjects relative to the newsgroup's name??

You truly are clueless if you can't understand that a long ongoing and
drawn-out discussion of a non-related subject matter is not polite to
others or in the best interest of the newsgroups you insist on copying
your posts to.  Grow up and stop your pointless drawn-out whining about
who's right on ozone theory.

--
Jerry Bransford
PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P.
The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

Matt Kenn

Legal Freon Substitute

by Matt Kenn » Thu, 04 Jul 1996 04:00:00

: >The CFC-ozone theory is just as accepted.

: You forgot "electron flow theory" and "Conventional current flow theory", both of
: which explain the conduction of electricity (one explanation the exact opposite of the
: other).  Both are valid when taken within the parameters of the theory and both are
: plausible explanations of how electrical currents flow.  Neither can be proven wrong,
: which is why both are valid theories, BUT, both _can't_ be correct!

Of course one can be proven right and the other wrong; it's been done
aeons ago in the dawn of solid state physics.

Electrons move quickly in conductors and scatter off impurities.

--

Oak Ridge National Laboratory/University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN USA/
*NO MASS EMAIL SPAM* It's an abuse of Federal Government computer resources
and an affront to common civility.  On account of egregiously vile spamation,
my software terminates all email from "interramp.com" and "cris.com" without
human intervention.

BBW

Legal Freon Substitute

by BBW » Fri, 05 Jul 1996 04:00:00



>>snip<

>> I'll have to agree with Gene,  I work in the scientific community and
>> there are alot of people that just want the money for their half baked
>> ideas.  Interesting thing about the ozone layer is that ham radio uses
>> the ozone layer for bouncing signals off.  Surprisingly the radio
>> propagation is dependent on sun spot activity which is virtually nill
>> right now, but in a few years propagation is supposed to increase
>> because the sun spots will return.  At the same time there are
>> scientists who say the ozone hole will be reducing by the year 2000
>> because of all the steps taken for CFC removal.  Makes you wonder!

>> Bud
>> omne ignotum pro magnifico

>I'll bet that you aren't a ham radio operator. We don't bounce radio
>signals off the ozone layer. The E-layer, F-Layer, on and on and on,
>all *ionized* layers of the atmosphere.

>I've never heard of radio signals being bounced off the ozone layer!

>-- Dan Meyer / N00KFB

You're right Dan, my error in saying that we use the ozone layer, the
truth of the matter is the E, F and other layers will become more
active when sunspots return when some of these scientists expect the
ozone layer to return.  And yes I am a HAM.  Interesting though Dave,
I made a mistake in layer designation but you didn't dispute the jist
of the message.  I bet you don't like NO-Code tech's either, I entered
that way but have gone on in class, while your at it what kind of call
sign is that with no number in it.  I guess we all make simple
mistakes.
Bud
omne ignotum pro magnifico

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