rec.autos.simulators

  Your comments always welcome

--
Stop =-POLICE-= ***.
 E-Mail

  Your comments always welcome

 Thatsa right dont you forget it come by 112300 so. canyon way #b you
forgot to tell them that to!!!

  Your comments always welcome

: I was told that the patent on R-12 was about to expire so the patent
: holder said it was no longer any good so now they can sell the new stuff
: with a new patent.
: Don't know if it is true but it came from a non-partial mechanic who had
: no axe to grind. As for the EPA, I am sure they can be influenced

Not true.  Many companies have made R12.  The EPA has approved several
substitutes.  Your mechanic is ignorant.

Why do these myths about conspiraces keep raising their heads?  Do people
have some need to believe somebody's trying to control their lives?

: >
: > To summarize:
: >
: > 1. We know CFCs make it into the stratosphere -- we've measured them there.
: > 2. We know uv light breaks a Cl free radical off a CFC molecule -- simple
: > chemistry.
: > 3. We know a Cl free radical breaks down an ozone molecule -- again,
: > simply chemisty.
: > 4. We know CFCs are the primary source of Cl in the stratosphere because
: > no other Cl source makes it up there AND the F concentration correlates
: > with the Cl concentration there.
: > 5. We know the CFC concentration in the stratosphere has been increasing
: > for decades, correlating with the usage of CFCs.
: > 6. We know the ozone layer has been degrading, correlating with the
: > amount of CFCs making it up to the stratosphere.
:
: I have a few questions.
:
: 1. What created(s) the "ozone layer"?

Uv light breaks an O atom off an O2 molecule; the O atom combines with
another O2 molecule to make an O3 (ozone) molecule.

:
: 2. If UV is needed to create these "Cl free radicals" why are the "ozone
: holes" always over the poles (usually the pole in its winter phase) and not
: over the equator where direct sunlight would seem to have a much stronger
: effect?

The poles are isolated in their winter by air currents, giving the
reactions lots of time to happen.

:
: 3. Why is the "ozone layer" now "healing" even though the CFC ban has not
: been effect long enough to make any difference?

It's not.  The Antarctic hole was bigger last year than at any time in
history, as was the depleted region over the Arctic.

:
: 4. Does the level of solar activity have any effect on the "ozone layer"?

There is some cycling of the ozone layer, yes.  But a depletion like
we've seen in the last 15 years has never occurred due to solar activity.

:
: > All the world's industrialized nations wouldn't have agreed to the ban on
: > CFCs if the scientific evidence wasn't overwhelming.
:
: I followed one of the EPA links that someone posted and I saw no scientific
: proof to back up the "hole" theory.

Try a scientific journal (you know, library and all that).  Science and
Chemical & Engineering News are good places to start.

: The "data" was oversimplistic and was
: as detailed as the claim "stuff causes cancer because it is bad for you".
: It may be true but I refuse to take the words of bureauocrats as fact,
: even if backed by scientists.
:

Well, if you won't accept scientific data, I can't help you.  Are you
really qualified to judge the quality of the science?

: If anyone knows where I can access raw scientific data on this subject via
: the net, please let me know. Summations mean little to me if the data is
: not accessible. I'm willing to learn but I would like to see all the
: "facts" before I buy into a theory.

In science, a theory is the accepted explanation for something; it is not
a guess.  (Gee, this is freshman science stuff, folks!)  A theory is the
highest status an explanation can have.  Ref the theory of gravity,
theory of relativity, theory of quantum mechanics.  Do you reject them
because you don't have all the facts in front of you?
:

: If we followed the same rules for HIV as we follow for the EPA, we would
: quarantine all HIV Positives.  Note the double standare.  For the EPA one must
: prove that an item will not cause any harm to the environment (not that it
: does).  For HIV, the evidence is held that certain exposures are not dangerous
: because it has not been proven to be dangerous (not that it has not been
: proven NOT to be dangerous).

But it HAS been proven CFCs destroy the ozone layer.  Have you read ANY
scientific articles?  Where does your pseudoinformation come from? And it
was an international treaty, signed by President Bush and ratified by the
Senate, that's banned R12.  Not the EPA.

: Just butting in to this interesting conversation...
:
: A point I haven't seen brought up that I read in "Time" and another magazine whose
: name eludes me is: Cfc's destroy ozone, most scientists will agree, the question is
: how much damage are humans really responsable for.  When Mount Pinatubo (spelling)
: exploded the estimate was that it threw out more ozone destroying chemicals in its
: multiple eruptions than humans have expelled in 500 YEARS or more.  Kinda makes you
: wonder how much good banning cfc's will do.
:
: note...these numbers aren't exact (hence no quote marks) but this is the jist of
: what I read twice.  I will endeaver to find the exact wording.

Wrong!  You are spreading lies.  There was NO (repeat, NO) increase in Cl
in the stratosphere after Pinatubo erupted.  What part of that don't you
understand?  Why not go to a library and look up some scientific
articles?  You might actually learn something.

Pep Boys already has a substitute for R134a, but not freon yet. I will
keep you posted.

: > >  Another thing to do is take the rental car to a local small airstrip
: > > and buy some of the class c aviation fuel its about 130 octane and put
: > > that in the tank and hit the road!!
: Not to mention that they will not sell aviation fuel for use in a car
: snce highway taxes are not included in it.....

If you can't figure out how to buy a can of gas, you definately lack
creativity.  I've seen people buy it for motercycles frequently, and done
it once myself (didn't think it did much).

: > Aha, an Aussie. I don't want to insult a whole nation, but I heard a similar
: > story from someone down under about a month ago. About renting an Explorer
: > and taking it offroad. Besides the fact that these things are not made for
: > that, the Aussie word 'offroad' is not the same as in the US. Said
: >something

: Strange... The Explorer isn't sold in Australia....  So the
: story must be bogus.

Huh?  I would think the guy from Australia would have been in the US to
rent one.  Why would he rent one in Australia if he has his own trucks
there?  The story sounded like it happened in the US to me, only the
driver was Austrailian.

: The only US product we get is the Cherokee and Grand Cherokee.

You did't get the CJ, YJ, or TJ??  I feel sorry for you.

: You mean a Yankie 4WD can't do what a japanese 4wd can do?

Well, seeing as more than 95% of the 4WD never leave the pavement here,
seems Ford doesn't much care if it is a good off-road product, and they
haven't since they designed the Bronco in the 60's, and it has become
much less capable of off-roading since then.

Dodge is doing a fair job, Chevy... with a little aftermarket help, and
JEEP is still king if the (off-road dirt) hill.

But I would put up almost any American 4X up against the Toyota RAV4.

: Says something about the American product.

I forget, what was the Australian product?
(what does <doesn't> that say about the Australian product?)

: Richard

Any car can be distroyed, I have went threw several, of my own (NOT
rentals).  They are tools, they do a job, move people from A to B.  And
no one makes an "indestructable" one.  When you get the urge to get to
"Point B" and there are no roads to "point B" you just might end up
breaking a few parts.  To me, that is how I figure out the "weak link" in
a truck, and it tells me what part to build stronger.

I would be curious what kind of cars the guys who seem to love distroying
rentals actually own.  They either found one they think is strong enough
in thier abuses, or they gave up and figure they are all gonna break
someday so they drive a clunker.

to all...
ps....   Funny that the people who started the name calling are the ones
who bash the car bashers.  So, it takes an "***" to start calling
people "pimple faced dateless children"????  Seems you are being more
childish calling names during a discussion about the distruction of a
leased car.  Don't read it if you don't like it.

: Jerrause
: > an engine to run cooler, and in some cases can actually cause an engine
: > to run hotter and even severely damage some engines.  Not rumor, fact!
: > It's amazing how few people know what octane is and does.
: > --
: > Jerry Bransford
: > PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P.
: > The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

: I know what it is. Im an organic chemistry buff!  Did very well with
: these coursed in school. Octane is, for those who dont already know, is
: c8h18. Oct means 8, get it?
: Therefore you have 8 carbons. Another ex: Hexane: = c6h14 (6 carbons)

: Now you all know what octane is
: Thanks,
:  CT
: Hawaii: Cole
: "If you dont like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk"

Actually, octane ratings on the pumps are kind of a rough estimate of the
about of molecules with eight carbon.  The mesurement is still being
prefected, and made more easy to do as we speek.

I don't believe that C8H18 is the only "octane"  that gets mesured.  It's
possable a few C8H16's get mesured....  But it is generally a mesurement
of C8 with lots of H's
C = carbon
H = hydrogen
mixed with O2 from the air (oxygen) you get:
CO2  (carbon dioxide)
and H2O (water)
and other byproducts.

the lower the C number (eg C5H12) the faster and hotter it burns,
the higher the C number (eg C10H22) the slower it burns.

Ethanol additive doesn't really increase the "octane"  Ethanol is really
a C2, not a C8.  But since it burns faster, it shifts the average C
number down.  But it's a diffrent chemical, because it is an ALCHOL and
not a HYDROCARBON.  They both burn the well though.

Alchols just add an Oxygen molecule in the mix.

methane  is   CH4
Methanol is   CH3OH

still one carbon and four hydrogens total, just an oxygen thrown in.

Hope I managed to intrest any "McGyver" types who read about pushing the
limits of cars to consider taking a class in Chemistry.  It has more
practical uses than you can amagine!  :)

--

                                     n,
Robert W Current, Grad Student     _/ | _
Department of Chemistry           /'  `'/
University of North Dakota      <~    .'

NRA, SASS, VHA                _/      |
                            _/      `.`.
                    _______/ '   \__ | |______
##################_/ (|___/      /__\ \ \     \___.########################
#################/    \___.'\_______)\_|_|        \########################
################|\                                 -----\##################
################| \____________________________________/|##################
###############/   |                                    |##################

writes:

   put drivers seat all the way back and and get that rent-a-mobile up
to about 110-120mph....disconnect the seat belt.......and hit a
big-assed oak tree straight on.......***in' hilarious!!!

Lloyd, there is a book written on the subject.  It is about
urban myths.  They have replaced the myths of antiquity.  They include
such notables as the "woman/man who put their dog/cat in the
dryer/microwave, the 200 mph carb (I don't know what is being said now
that carbs are not being used anymore, anyway that one always did
ignore the laws of thermodynamics), and others.

When those get debunked, then new ones are invented.  Like the one
about "someone" making lots of money using the internet chain letter
(other than the orinators (first 5 names) and other pyramid schemes.

Oh well, it keeps people occupied and there are worse things.

Randy, I would treat anything I read in Time with at least one grain
of salt, maybe 2.  Note the words "estimate."  I don't think much
measurement of what Mt P put into the ozone layer was easily
measurable.  Course that is just my "think" and probably not right
either.  Anyhow as you said, an interesting conversation.