rec.autos.simulators

It does if you drink enough of it.

Janice Chung                                      Miss  Bullshit  USA

                             _/ -/ O\___/~ \_     Honourary Brit #001
Newy Ork City               /   /  ___\___   \                __  __
                           /   \   \      /   \         +-,  (  )(  )  
1997 Suzuki GSX-R1100     /   /\\E/\\_   //\   \        |  ]=|--  --|
1995 Harley Davidson   \_/   /   /_/- \-//--\   \_      +-'  +------+
     FLSTF Fat Boy       |  /|  /\____  ___  \  | \             /\
1986 Suzuki GSX-R7/11    | / | /      ||   \ |\ |              /  \
     Gone but not        ||  ||       ||    || ||             /    \
     forgotten"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Where do you get all the money for this car renting?  Do you ever
worry that your name will get forwarded by someone to several of the
major rental car companies?  Why did you start this thread?  What kind
of idiot are you?  Didn't you mother teach you any manners?  Why don't
you figure out how to abuse your computer?  Why don't you post
somewhere else?  Why don't you take a vacation where there is no
communication with other humans?  Lets see, did I leave anything out?

what an ***

Kyle

* : I was told that the patent on R-12 was about to expire so the patent
* : holder said it was no longer any good so now they can sell the new stuff
* : with a new patent.
* : Don't know if it is true but it came from a non-partial mechanic who had
* : no axe to grind. As for the EPA, I am sure they can be influenced
*
* Not true.  Many companies have made R12.  The EPA has approved several
* substitutes.  Your mechanic is ignorant.
*
* Why do these myths about conspiraces keep raising their heads?  Do people
* have some need to believe somebody's trying to control their lives?

While I have no information on the reasons, the EPA certainly _is_
trying to control their lives---at least the part of their lives that
deals with their cars' air conditioning systems.
--

                *               *               *

ozone (ozon) noun
1. A blue gaseous allotrope of oxygen, O3, formed naturally from
diatomic oxygen by electric discharge or exposure to ultraviolet
radiation. It is an unstable, powerfully bleaching, poisonous oxidizing
agent with a pungent, irritating odor, used to deodorize air, purify
water, treat industrial wastes and as a bleach.

                *               *               *

Let's see if I get this straight. O2 gains energy from UV and splits
into two atoms of O. A single O atom combines with an existing O2
molecule and become part of a new O3 molecule (ozone). If I am correct,
it seems that ozone does not absorb UV, oxygen does! Ozone is only a
product of that reaction. Could it be that this is what absorbs the UV
energy instead of some type of ozone eclipse effect as we are led to
believe?

I can agree that ozone probably does play a part in the UV "shielding"
effect of the atmosphere, especially if UV COMBINED with chlorine really
does cause a breakdown of ozone molecules. Would this also absorb UV
energy and result in the same "blocking" effect that splits O2 molecule?

Looking further, assuming more UV does get through the "ozone layer"
as a result of the Cl theory, wouldn't oxygen below the established
boundaries of the "ozone layer" also absorb UV radiation, resulting in
ozone creation at lower altitudes, essentially creating a thicker "ozone
layer"?

BTW, is it true that atmospheric ozone levels increase near the earth's
surface in the summer?

I'm not a scientist, physicist or a chemist so don't flame me for being
"ignorant" because I am ignorant. I am as ignorant on the subject as
anyone but I see some questions here that never seem to make it into
discussions on this matter. All I am after is answers and/or corrections.

I hope anyone who has done the research will jump in and clarify the
issue for us. The CFC ban has and will cost us a significant sum of
money. There alot of tax payers out here that have been told essentially;
"Your air conditioning repair bill has gone through the roof because we
don't want you to get skin cancer from the ozone holes we found above the
polar regions". If enough arguable environmental theories lead to an even
higher cost of living with little or no percieved benefit, tax payers may
end up voting for politicians that might go too far in the other direction.
I feel we have a right to a detailed, accurate and complete explanation
of the theory(s) that inspired the ban.

 Dan

   ----------------------------------------------------------------
        The skeptic does not mean him who doubts, but him who
        investigates or researches, as opposed to him who asserts
        and thinks that he has found.
                                        Miguel de Unamuno

: Who pays for your car abuse?

i'm sure you're going to tell us...

: We do.

"we?"

who are you callin' "we?"

i don't rent (cough, hack, ptooie) cages.

however, anyone who does, deserves what they get.

: Thanks.

anytime.

gears,
ye wilde ryder
--


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   :-)

    Steve

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: >
: > To summarize:

: I have a few questions.

: 1. What created(s) the "ozone layer"?

Solar radiation.

: 2. If UV is needed to create these "Cl free radicals" why are the "ozone
: holes" always over the poles (usually the pole in its winter phase) and not
: over the equator where direct sunlight would seem to have a much stronger
: effect?

The scavenging of ozone only takes place efficiently when Cl radicals
can stick themselves on the right kind of ice particles, which depends on
particular meterological circumstances.  

: 3. Why is the "ozone layer" now "healing" even though the CFC ban has not
: been effect long enough to make any difference?

It has been long enough to make a difference and the 'healing' is very
small.  

: 4. Does the level of solar activity have any effect on the "ozone layer"?

Yes.

: > All the world's industrialized nations wouldn't have agreed to the ban on
: > CFCs if the scientific evidence wasn't overwhelming.

: I followed one of the EPA links that someone posted and I saw no scientific
: proof to back up the "hole" theory. The "data" was oversimplistic and was
: as detailed as the claim "stuff causes cancer because it is bad for you".
: It may be true but I refuse to take the words of bureauocrats as fact,
: even if backed by scientists.

Why? It is fact.

: If anyone knows where I can access raw scientific data on this subject via
: the net, please let me know. Summations mean little to me if the data is
: not accessible. I'm willing to learn but I would like to see all the
: "facts" before I buy into a theory.

I'd ask somebody at NASA.  Better yet, call up a good university and
talk to some people whoare experts in atmospheric scientist.

: BTW, I am interested in seeing this discussion continue but I think it may
: be needlessly cluttering up a few extra NGs. If anyone has a suggestion as
: to where to take it, I will follow. I am posting from rec.autos.simulators
: and I think some of these guys may be getting tired of this thread.

:  Dan

--

Oak Ridge National Laboratory/University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN USA/
*NO MASS EMAIL SPAM* It's an abuse of Federal Government computer resources
and an affront to common civility.  On account of egregiously vile spamation,
my software terminates all email from "interramp.com" and "cris.com" without
human intervention.

7: Let's see if I get this straight. O2 gains energy from UV and splits
: into two atoms of O. A single O atom combines with an existing O2
: molecule and become part of a new O3 molecule (ozone). If I am correct,
: it seems that ozone does not absorb UV, oxygen does! Ozone is only a
: product of that reaction. Could it be that this is what absorbs the UV
: energy instead of some type of ozone eclipse effect as we are led to
: believe?
:

Half right.  The formation of O3 from O2 absorbs a portion of the uv
spectrum.  Then O3 absorbs a photon of uv radiation and breaks back down
into O2 and O.  This absorbs from a different portion of the uv
spectrum.  These 2 processes are naturally in balance, so the amount of
O3 stays constant.  When you provide a second mechanism for breaking O3
down, such as Cl does, you destroy O3 faster than it is produced.

: I can agree that ozone probably does play a part in the UV "shielding"
: effect of the atmosphere, especially if UV COMBINED with chlorine really
: does cause a breakdown of ozone molecules. Would this also absorb UV
: energy and result in the same "blocking" effect that splits O2 molecule?

The first time a Cl is split off, yes.  The problem is, the Cl keeps
being regenerated in the reaction and so one Cl atom from one CFC
molecule can destroy thousands of O3 molecules.

:
: Looking further, assuming more UV does get through the "ozone layer"
: as a result of the Cl theory, wouldn't oxygen below the established
: boundaries of the "ozone layer" also absorb UV radiation, resulting in
: ozone creation at lower altitudes, essentially creating a thicker "ozone
: layer"?

No.  As you get to lower atmosphere, there are a lot more substances that
will react with O3 to break it down, or with O atoms so they don't form O3.

:
: BTW, is it true that atmospheric ozone levels increase near the earth's
: surface in the summer?

Different altogether.  Nitrogen oxide emissions from combustion combine
with O2 at ground level to make O3.  It is a pollutant here since it
causes respiratory problems.

What *has* been measured is an actual decrease in the concentration of one
ozone-depleter, a solvent called methyl chloroform.  In addition, there's
been a slowing in the increase in CFC-11 and CFC-12 concentrations.  Not a
decrease, but a slowing in the increase.  And these results are *directly*
attributable to strong actions taken under the Montreal Protocol.  Keep in
mind that this wasn't a sudden cut from full-bore production to zip.  It
was a phaseout.  The total production allowed in 1994 and 1995 was only
25% of that in 1986.  You can read all about the phaseout in our fact
sheet, at
<URL:http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/phaseout/accfact.html>

And, in fact, since the phaseout began in 1989, the US has never made the
amount it was allowed under the Protocol.  So the effects we're seeing now
on ozone-depleting substance concentrations are the result of reduced
production over the last 7 years.

The reason it will take 40-50 years for a recovery is that CFC-12 has a
lifetime of over 100 years.  Other ozone-depleters live even longer.  You
can read all about the science of ozone depletion on our web site, too, at
<URL:http://www.epa.gov/science/>

And I suppose I need to keep reiterating the address for our fact sheet
that lists several substitutes for CFC-12 in auto AC:
<URL:http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/snap/macssubs.html>
since several people still don't believe we're listing substitutes.

Jeffrey Levy
USEPA

Have your trusty mechanic go to the library and look up basic patent law.
What he'll find is that they expire after 17 years.  Next, have him look
up when CFC-12 was invented.  He'll find it was in the 1930s.  I leave as
an exercise for the reader the number of decades ago that the patent
expired.

At least 5 different companies made CFC-12.  When your mechanic or you
feel like going to the library after the research suggested above, next go
search for articles from the mid-1980s.  I think you'll be surprised at
the vehemence with which companies like DuPont argued against any link
between CFCs and ozone depletion.  People who claim this is a patent scam
are missing some very basic knowledge.

Jeffrey Levy
USEPA

Ozone absorbs the middle band, UV-B.  It is this radiation that we're
worried about.  When ozone absorbs UV-B, it breaks down into a normal
oxygen molecule and a single oxygen atom.  This is the absorption effect
that protects life on Earth from UV-B.  There's still some that always
gets through, but ozone depletion will increase this level.  So it's not a
mysterious "ozone eclipse."
It's a different absorption spectrum entirely.  By the way, there is an
excellent discussion of all this in the ozone depletion FAQ.  There are
several links to this FAQ from our science page:
<URL:http://www.epa.gov/ozone/science>
at the bottom.  I haven't memorized the FAQ URL, sorry.

Under normal circumstances, the ozone destruction caused by UV-B balances
ozone production caused by UV-C, and ozone levels stay normal.

However, with high chlorine concentrations, *unnatural* reactions occur
that rapidly destroy ozone.  You can read about this on our ozone science
page, above.  Specifically, read about the ozone depletion process.

Again, this occurs to some extent, but the problem, as explained above, is
that oxygen and ozone absorb different wavelengths of UV.  UV-C doesn't
leak through the ozone layer, because it's so strongly absorbed by normal
oxygen.  So ozone levels don't really rise a lot below the ozone layer.
See the ozone FAQ for more info.

Read the ozone FAQ for info about stratospheric ozone seasonal
fluctuations.  However, ozone near the Earth's surface (in the
troposphere) may well increase in summer because of increased sunlight,
which plays a role in surface ozone production, also known as smog.  But
this doesn't help much.  Tropospheric ozone
levels that set off health alerts are only a tiny fraction of normal
stratospheric ozone levels.  You can read our fact sheet called "Ozone:
Good Up High, Bad Nearby" from our science page on the web.

Grand!  Read all the info I've suggested above.  Your questions are
perfectly reasonable, and I never have any problems with reasonable
queries.  The point is simply that they've been answered, and answered
extremely solidly, with lots of experimental and observational evidence.
The science of ozone depletion is based on hundreds of studies, thousands
of measurements, and the combined work
of hundreds of researchers.

Couldn't agree more that your deserve a clear explanation.  See above for
same.  Also, you can read the executive summary from the 1994 Scientific
Assessment of Ozone Depletion at a link from our science page.  You can
also order a free copy of that and any other fact sheet from our hotline,
at 800-296-1996.  The 1994 Assessment represents the consensus conclusions
of nearly 300 atmospheric researchers from around the world.

You should also know that the current estimates for the cost of the
phaseout are in the 100 billion dollar range.  The estimated health
benefits are in the multi-trillion dollar range.  For those of you keeping
score, it's a ratio of at least 10-1 of benefits to costs.  This was all
documented in a very long regulatory impact analysis done to support the
phaseout.  If you really want to read it (it's several hundred pages
long), you can visit our Air Docket, in DC.  Write me email and I'll tell
you the docket number.  But trust me, you don't want to read this thing!

One final note:  ozone depletion has now been measured nearly worldwide.
Over the US, ozone levels have fallen about 10% in winter and 5% in
summer.  See
<URL:http://www.epa.gov/ozone/science/glob_dep.html>
for more info.

Jeffrey Levy
USEPA

One last