rec.autos.simulators

WTF is going on here? RASCAR is making a giant sucking sound

Cliff Roma

WTF is going on here? RASCAR is making a giant sucking sound

by Cliff Roma » Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:17:48

I think John summed it up best when he said in an earlier message

"You can't convince me"



> > Righ now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that I
> > have to put up with whiners.

> That's easy to say when you're in charge. You shouldn't forget that the
> opposite train of thought is also true:

> "Right now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that we,
> the drivers, have to put up with John Simmons' rules that we, the
> drivers, don't agree with."

> People "whine" for a reason, Mr. Simmons. Go ahead and ignore them.
> Refuse to compromise. Both you and I know that RASCAR will not last
> forever. So, enjoy the ego trip.

> -Will

redTe

WTF is going on here? RASCAR is making a giant sucking sound

by redTe » Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:42:18

"> > Penalties
A poll vote. You know the type.Just click the magic circle to register your
vote.
eg  http://www.bhmotorsports.com/  the weekly poll.

John Simmon

WTF is going on here? RASCAR is making a giant sucking sound

by John Simmon » Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:41:27





> >No, it's NOT a moot point. I could have just started doing it without
> >a warning. Afterall, the rules page states the following:

> >"The following rule set is a living thing, and can change from day to
> >day. It is up to you to stay informed, so before each race, I suggest
> >that you preview the following to make sure something hasn't been
> >added, changed, or deleted."

> But by whom will it be changed?  Just you John?  And the underlying
> concern here is that you can do it because 'you can'.  There may be 19
> others saying 'We don't want or need a rule like that!', but there is a
> sense at the moment that their say counts for nothing.

Well, in this instance, everyone is complaining about the extreme
number of cautions. The cautions we are experiencing are caused by
lack of practice, over-aggressive driving, and just plain stupid shit
being done at other racers' expense.

A number of people want cautions turned off. A few think we should
stop racing back to the caution. A few think we shouldn't allow
passing before the backstretch. A couple want single-file restarts.

First, I think that as low as the realism aspect alreay is in the
sim, I don't feel that adding artificial racing rules is the answer,
is desrieable. Second, changing the way we race is only going to mask
the root cause of the problem instead of fixing it. Only practice,
and driving smart are going to fix the problem.

Our rules are almost identical to last season, and they've been the
same all season so far as far as racing is concerned.

My personal opinion is that people are pissed off for a couple of
reasons:

1) They mistakenly think that the *proposed* rules from a few weeks
ago have become the league rules.  This is simply not true, since
clicking the RULES link on the web page leads to the same rules we
were using before proposed rules were even brought up.

2) They assume that the rules will be so strictly enforced that there
will be no room for interpretation by anyone. Again, this is simply
not true, and it is wholly unfair to make that assumption.

3) They assume that the rules will actually inhibit racing. Again,
this is simply not true, and it's an unfair assumption to make since
we haven't even raced under the new penalty system.

4) They assume I'm not listending to their comments or considering
them in the decision making process.  This particular group of people
are simply pissed off at me for other un-related reasons.  If they
would open their eyes, they'd realize that I'm suggesting a number of
different things, changing my mind, pruning and combining to make a
better set of rules that promote cleaner driving.  Instead, they've
got it in their minds that nothing I come up with will be good
enough.  To that rather vocal, and rather small minority that won't
just shut-the-***-up and try the new ideas out, I say***off.  I
recognize that some ideas just won't work, and I've demonstrated my
ability to adapt and re-assess my position, while this group won't
give the current process a snowball's chance in hell chance of
succeeding.

People who are willing to work patiently to find the one true path
with me are encouraged to keep making suggestions. People that are
just pissed off at me and are taking it out on everyone else by
trying to stir up some anarchy and insist that everyone take sides
are going to be ignored.  If they play nice, I'll play nice.  

You gotta ask yourself - if they hate everything as much as they
indicate, why are they still racing in the league?  Why don't they
find another league to run in that has a rule set that is more
philosophically aligned with their own ideals?

And if you think the noise-level is high now, just wait until I do my
first race analysis.

So, to answer your original question, it's changed by me as the
league evolves (to use your own term).  Right now, our racing has all
the focus and organization of a department store running a sale on
ladies hats.  That's gonna change, like right now.

John Simmon

WTF is going on here? RASCAR is making a giant sucking sound

by John Simmon » Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:48:26



It's a matter of style of management.  If someone wants to continue
the bullshit in a more private forum (email, PM, whatever), I
couldn't really give a rat's ass. HOWEVER, since he forum is a RASCAR
forum, and is considered property of the league (for lack of a better
term), the discusion of the last race stops COMPLETELY in the RASCAR
forum and by Tuesday at 9pm central. Period. End of topic.  

For the record, I included r.a.s in the time-limit out of an honest
desire to keep this kind of long-winded bullshit from happening in
r.a.s. Just because we started the group here, doesn't mean we can
*** all non-RASCAR people with endless bickering, finger-pointing
and just plain childish bullshit concerning a race that happen
anywhere from one week to one year in the past.

I've tried to keep the RASCAR stuff focused on the forum instead of
here, but as you see it doesn't always work out.

John Simmon

WTF is going on here? RASCAR is making a giant sucking sound

by John Simmon » Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:00:57



> I think that one comment right there just summarized why you are having the
> problems that you are having in the league




They know my position of manual chatting, it's never changed, and
never even waivered. It also happens to be a position shared by MANY
other people in the online racing community.

But how absurd do you think it sounds when someone is worried about
being bored while driving around under caution, and I'm working
towards having fewer cautions?

You have to wonder about some folks' priorities, don't you...

-----------------------

Oh yeah, one last thing about the "chatting" issue. The rules say
that there should be no excessive chatting, and that they should only
chat by way of their auto-chat keys where the message is directly
related to their racing status. You know, things like "Pitting",
"Exiting pits", "Pass me low", and truly informative stuff like that.  
While I don't see the need for it, and I don't personally use these
statements, "Thank you" and "sorry" are also easily assigned to auto-
chat keys, so they're okay too.

However, when people are typing like mad-men, important auto-chart
messages could be missed, confusion will most assuredly reign, wrecks
will happen, and we'll see three and a half days of

    "I was pitting you moron"

exchanged with

    "Why didn't you announce it then you idiot".

The no manual chat rule makes more sense to me than worrying about
whether some half-wit is bored during a freakin' caution.

I cannot be convinced that manual chat is a good or viable thing in
an online racing evnvironment.

John Simmon

WTF is going on here? RASCAR is making a giant sucking sound

by John Simmon » Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:11:31



Talking about the past is fine as long as the past doesn't include
unwarranted ***ing and moaning.  There's been a few instances where
ex-IGPS members fondly remembered past incidents on the track and
just within the league itself.

Key words like "cornflakes", "Monaco", "Mosport", "Italians", "Nash",
"Rickard", and other weird little things bring smiles to the faces of
many (if not all) of the IGPS guys. But have you ever seen any of
them recount, draw out, or re-hash anything bad in the league?  I
haven't, at least, not publicly.  I guess the guy that ran it - I
think his name was John Simmons - wasn't run through a freakin' meat
grinder by a single one of them. And guess what, the rules were
modified a few times without any derisive bullshit following the
changes

The racing was great, within the context of not only GPL, but when
considered as part of the online racing scene in general at the time.
Granted the racing wasn't nearly as crowded in GPL as it is here, but
we had our moments. The Monaco finish in season 1 where the top 3
finishers were within one second of each other, and the pass I pulled
off on ZZ-Bush at Mosport was aboslutely butt-clenchingly cool.

There have been many more instances of great racing in RASCAR, but
when was the last time a bunch of RASCAR drivers just hung out
talking about the good stuff?  Michigan was a great race for a lot of
us, but the arguments have ruined an otherwise pretty good race
memory for a lot of those involved.

Mitch_

WTF is going on here? RASCAR is making a giant sucking sound

by Mitch_ » Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:14:02

Youre on to something here Cliff :)


> I think John summed it up best when he said in an earlier message

> "You can't convince me"




> > > Righ now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that I
> > > have to put up with whiners.

> > That's easy to say when you're in charge. You shouldn't forget that the
> > opposite train of thought is also true:

> > "Right now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that we,
> > the drivers, have to put up with John Simmons' rules that we, the
> > drivers, don't agree with."

> > People "whine" for a reason, Mr. Simmons. Go ahead and ignore them.
> > Refuse to compromise. Both you and I know that RASCAR will not last
> > forever. So, enjoy the ego trip.

> > -Will

Mitch_

WTF is going on here? RASCAR is making a giant sucking sound

by Mitch_ » Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:15:19

You RAN Ed out of town and then VOLUNTEERED to take it over.  No one asked
you Simmons!


> (raises hand)



> > But your not doing that anymore now are you bud :)
> > So my question would be, who is doing that now?

> > :)

> > --
> > Tim White
> > www.intracmotorsports.com



> > > In all fairness,
> > > I was the one that setup, designed and maintained the website... After
each
> > > race I'd download the replay and results of Eldreds server, upload
them to
> > > ours, write a little something, and upload/post new addidtions to the
roster
> > > and carset.

> > > All John really did was painting people's cars or telling them how to
paint
> > > them (according to his wishes - although they actually happend to be
close
> > > to mine - this time. :o))

Mitch_

WTF is going on here? RASCAR is making a giant sucking sound

by Mitch_ » Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:25:57

You know my position on racing back to the yellow JS.  But "that aint ever
going to happen in any league I run", your words exactly.  And as Ive said,
who the F*&k are you?  You VOLUNTEERED for anything you do in RASCAR.
Somehow youve turned this into YOUR own self appointement as RASCAR
president.

Eldred VOLUNTEERED a server for RASCAR's use.  When he volunteered the
server it wasnt under ANY stipulations.  Now we have a decent group of
drivers but instead of making reasonable suggestions we now have Johns way
or the highway.

Mitch


John Simmon

WTF is going on here? RASCAR is making a giant sucking sound

by John Simmon » Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:25:41

Mitch, you really should choose your words more carefully.  By your
statement, you're implying that I asked Ed to leave (or even more
ominous, booted him forcefully from the league).

He actually quit with absolutely no warning to either me or Eldred.  
In fact, our first indicatiuon that he was quitting was the news page
on the RASCAR web site.

Eldred wasn't acting like he wanted to take over the job of website
maintenance, so I did. I had to download allthe website files and go
through them to make sure I was oriented with the way Ed had set
everyting up.  

The only changes I made were minor changes to the appearance of some
of the pages, and some re-formatting of the HTML source to accomodate
my desire to manually edit the files. Afterall, web page editing
programs insert way too much garbage in the resulting HTML. It was in
my way and served no useful or sytactical purpose.

lastly, while I was there, I cleaned a little dead wood out of the
roster.  And for your information, when Colin joined he stated up
front that he wasn't going to be able to make a lot of the races
because of schedule conflicts. If he was any less practiced as a
racer, I would have refused his application, but he actually helped
get us started, and being a legacy driver, he was owed a bit of extra
leeway.  

I extended a less noticeable leeway where car numbers were concerned
for this season. Everyone that raced last season was allowed first
chjoice of their old number. I certainly didn't HAVE to do that
either.

Every time you try to berate me Mitch, you look more like an
instigator than someone who has a valid complaint or comment to make.  
of course, that's just my view.



> You RAN Ed out of town and then VOLUNTEERED to take it over.  No one asked
> you Simmons!



> > (raises hand)



> > > But your not doing that anymore now are you bud :)
> > > So my question would be, who is doing that now?

> > > :)

John Simmon

WTF is going on here? RASCAR is making a giant sucking sound

by John Simmon » Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:27:45

And I've listened to the reasonable drivers making suggestions.

Do you need a sign directing you to the on-ramp Mitch?



Mitch_

WTF is going on here? RASCAR is making a giant sucking sound

by Mitch_ » Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:33:44

You seem to be able to skip the important part of the thread consistently.
Again, who the F*&* are you to make these decisions?  KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK, YOU
VOLUNTEERED for anything youre doing.


> And I've listened to the reasonable drivers making suggestions.

> Do you need a sign directing you to the on-ramp Mitch?



> > Now we have a decent group of
> > drivers but instead of making reasonable suggestions we now have Johns
way
> > or the highway.

Mitch_

WTF is going on here? RASCAR is making a giant sucking sound

by Mitch_ » Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:36:23

At what point have I berated you?

Do I think you have the management skills to run RASCAR with a fair even
hand, NO WAY JOSE!


> Mitch, you really should choose your words more carefully.  By your
> statement, you're implying that I asked Ed to leave (or even more
> ominous, booted him forcefully from the league).

> He actually quit with absolutely no warning to either me or Eldred.
> In fact, our first indicatiuon that he was quitting was the news page
> on the RASCAR web site.

> Eldred wasn't acting like he wanted to take over the job of website
> maintenance, so I did. I had to download allthe website files and go
> through them to make sure I was oriented with the way Ed had set
> everyting up.

> The only changes I made were minor changes to the appearance of some
> of the pages, and some re-formatting of the HTML source to accomodate
> my desire to manually edit the files. Afterall, web page editing
> programs insert way too much garbage in the resulting HTML. It was in
> my way and served no useful or sytactical purpose.

> lastly, while I was there, I cleaned a little dead wood out of the
> roster.  And for your information, when Colin joined he stated up
> front that he wasn't going to be able to make a lot of the races
> because of schedule conflicts. If he was any less practiced as a
> racer, I would have refused his application, but he actually helped
> get us started, and being a legacy driver, he was owed a bit of extra
> leeway.

> I extended a less noticeable leeway where car numbers were concerned
> for this season. Everyone that raced last season was allowed first
> chjoice of their old number. I certainly didn't HAVE to do that
> either.

> Every time you try to berate me Mitch, you look more like an
> instigator than someone who has a valid complaint or comment to make.
> of course, that's just my view.



> > You RAN Ed out of town and then VOLUNTEERED to take it over.  No one
asked
> > you Simmons!



> > > (raises hand)



> > > > But your not doing that anymore now are you bud :)
> > > > So my question would be, who is doing that now?

> > > > :)

Bamada

WTF is going on here? RASCAR is making a giant sucking sound

by Bamada » Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:36:54

No chat under caution is going to prevent more cautions??

Yes...one does. Let's see... so far I'm a moron, absurd and my priorities need
help. Do you wonder why some find you abrasive?

Mitch_

WTF is going on here? RASCAR is making a giant sucking sound

by Mitch_ » Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:38:39

Youre kidding right Jan?

Nothing wrong with towing the company line, when their is a COMPANY :)



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