rec.autos.simulators

Ditto Racetak

On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:11:10 -0000, "Trevor Dwyer"

I don't think I did. You mentioned that "it runs fine on a 90" - that
is what I was questioning, that and the fact that Dean could select
one (somewhat dubious, given the above) positive post and consider
that it suitably countered what was said.

What sort of frame-rate did you get on the unaccelerated P90 that you
considered fine, and was it with or without AI? I played CPR again
last night (first time in ages) and really enjoyed racing Surfer's
again. I'd just like both the frame-rate and the driving to be
predictable and consistent.

Cheers!
John

Rich,

He will be missed.  Maybe not by you, but by MANY people who were helped
my Dean.  Its a shame the people who attack him act like victims.
Typical of so much of todays society.  (The attack part was not directed
at you Rich - just generally speaking).

Scott B. Husted
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~sbhusted

Seriously, we all need to learn how to express ourselves without
attacking the people involved.  I highly doubt that Dean was to blame
for some of the shortcomings of CPR in it's first incarnation.

OH well...

[snip, and attribution for the ">>>" parts -sorry]

I am afraid this is not really relevant. I have to deal with
customers, too (although not in the computing business). Some
customers are nice, sensible people. Some customers are really big
***s (excuse my french). Nonetheless, all customers are always
right. They pay my money. Faced with the obnoxious variety, I may
think: "You are one self-righteous heap of shit!", but I say: "Yes,
certainly, sir! I am sorry for the inconvenience. Your complaint will
be dealt with immediately. I will personally see to it." When I have
left the premises, I may slam the door of the car a bit harder than
necessary to close it; I may yell obscenities into the air and bite a
chunk out of the steering wheel, but I will always (well, almost
always) be polite to customers. And try to solve their (imagined)
problems. Such is business.

I don't blame Dean, the person, either. In fact, I can understand him
all too well. But I think too that showing so much emotion is not a
clever move for the representative of a software company in a public
forum.
See, Randy, you're doing a great job for the producers of "Road to
Indy" in this group by trying to show that this game has its merits,
too. But you're not getting paid for it. Now, if *you* as a private
person decided not to touch that topic anymore to avoid the flames, I
could understand that. I'm somewhat puzzled, however, that a MS-rep,
who can (in his capacity as a developer and "salesman") only profit
from being here, quits and even announces his leaving in such a
manner. I am even more surprised since this is not a real time medium.
You can always read / get angry / break some innocent pieces of
furniture / relax / answer - in this particular order. You don't have
to answer right away.

[snip]

Again, I can understand that an individual person reacts like this. I
just think it makes a difference when you are the representative of a
company and dealing with customers. I, if I were in this situation and
had decided to quit, would either just have stopped posting, or
formally declared that I was leaving the group alone to concentrate on
my other work. Dean's last posting just appears a bit - I'm sorry -
unprofessional in that respect.

[snip]

I'm sorry, but this is not a professional way of handling
(prospective) customers. You can't "punish" them by withdrawing your
love and attention - that is really immature and unprofessional. Once
again, I understand exactly how much it takes to remain calm under
such circumstances, but I strongly believe that you have to be able to
ignore the flames if you're appearing as the official representative
of your company in front of your customers - no matter how stupid and
immature some of *them* may be.

--
Wolfgang Preiss       \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.
wopr"at"stud.uni-sb.de \ There is no "2" in my real e-mail address.
Uni des Saarlands       \ Sorry for the inconvenience. You know why.

That would mean he was unable to because he was unwilling - same
difference.

If someone makes no comment (i.e. writes nothing) then I can read
nothing into it. If someone specifically takes the time to write "no
comment" it _forces_ you to read something into it. I merely asked for
clarification on what, if anything, was meant, so that I wouldn't draw
the wrong conclusion, in other words I didn't read anything into it at
all.

Not unless you intend them to be open to interpretation, but then you
shouldn't cry "foul" if people do.

I didn't.

No, what Dean wrote _could_ be construed as accusations, depennding on
if he was implying something and what specifically it was. I didn't
like that implication, if indeed that's what it was, and requested
clarification.

Whew. Hope that's clear now :)

Cheers!
John

If the sim isn't calculating tire temps, then it's clearly much harder
to offer them via UI... :-)

---Jim

Mike..
If i was In part responsible for selling you an unfinished prouduct, or
ripping you off, or telling you that Im about to sell you the best SIM ever
and it turned out to be CPR, would you not abuse me as well?
But poor old dean and the guru's at TRI go crying home after asking SIM and
racing  experts alike in this group what their game is like, we told them,
they defended, we told them again, the left. Kittens lost their mittens.

And also I do not see any abuse going on, people pounded them with FACTS
not fiction.
The fact being the game is a pretty damed poor race sim, and one of the
worst at that.

Take it like Men TRI Guys.

Jason L'Hirondelle

Remove x to reply.

% >Not the intelligent, informative debate that Alison provided.

% A "debate" implies two sides... Alison's review was totally
% one sided... even in the "other voices" (or whatever it was
% called) section, nearly everything was negative... not one of
% her "other voices" had anything good to say about CPR... I
% don't think that's truthful...

After all the "glossed-over -- this is great" posts about CPR, her
observations were an attempt to address the "glossed over" problems with
CPR.  I for one don't care for a product just because its got some
"gee-whizz bang-bang" good parts, but also has some "glaring" holes.  I
understand that there are quite a few people who are happy and pleased
as punch with CPR.  Fine, that's good, that's business, that's life...
On the other hand there are people who demand a complete product and one
that lives up to its hype.  And why doesn't one have as much right to be
as vocal about the shortcomings as those who "preach" the glory.  The
truth is that CPR does not live up to its claims of being a simulation
of CART racing in all its glory.  When the emporer has no clothes, one
can either say the emporer has not clothes, or "yeah, but he's got cute
cheeks!". <G>

% I took the time to check out her site... I think she's biased to
% Papy's sim, I think she's got chips on her shoulders about
% Microsoft and men, and I think she's a little***y... So what?
% Well, for one thing, her little joke about Microsoft (which I
% do find very funny - I've seen it before and passed it on
% myself) just leads me to believe her review is prejudiced...

My oh my, you are welcome to your observations, but I highly doubt their
validity.  You can read that much into her review and website?  You are
in the wrong business.  Try 1-900-PSYHIC-PHYSCOLOGIST!  While you are
welcome to your thoughts, I really think accusing someone of whom you
know nothing about as having "chips on her shoulders about Microsoft and
men" as immature and uncalled for.  Talk about abusive posts.....

% PS - In keeping with the thread topic, I totally *disagree* with
% those who are blaming Alison for Dean's departure... his leaving
% was by choice and the result of weeks and weeks of abuse...

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

And I know that it would have gotten me a stern tongue-lashing or
worse when I worked at Papyrus. (The first time that I no longer had
to silenty take abuse on Papyrus' behalf was one of the sweetest
moments in my post-Papyrus life...)

---Jim

% >The lady's review was nothing more, nothing less, than her personal view
% >of the game as run on her personal system.  By detailing the conditions
% >under which she was running the game she may have helped others,
% >experiencing the same or similar problems, in that they would realise
% >that they were not the only pebble on the beach.

% And how does that help them, exactly?

% >This is something that would NOT have been achieved by Alison directing
% >her problems to Dean privately.

% I disagree.  If she'd resolved the problems with Dean privately, she
% might have actually provided solutions (if any were found) to those
% people who experienced her problems. She still could have mentioned
% the problems and knocked points off of the game because of them, but
% she definitely could have helped anyone who had a similar problem
% understand and fix it.  Simply airing a complaint doesn't do anything
% for those who might have a similar problem.  Knowing I'm not alone
% doesn't make the game any better.

I got a big kick out of one of Dean's answers to her problems.  "Here,
I'll send you a 3dfx card, that should make you like the game".  Hell,
maybe that's the answer.  Microsoft should be selling CPR for $54.95
with a bundled (free) 3dfx card.  Then maybe I would consider buying the
product.  Since it seems that the only way they were able to get good
reviews was to supply the reviewers with top of the line equipment.  I
mean even the reviews that pointed out some of the weak points of the
product admitted it really needed equipment they didn't own in order to
truly experience the product.  BTW:  I always enjoy reviews that say if
you make a $3000+ hardware upgrade, you'll love this $40.00 product.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% you gotta be kidding.......Is that all you saw? the blame being passed
% on?..... so why are they coming out with this patch again?    who is being
% blamed for that? hmmmmmmm I havent heard them blaming anyone for the AI
% problems..I havent heard them blaming anyone for the rain tire bug. so
% please tell me who is being blamed for that? maybe just maybe they admit the
% game isnt up to par and they are fixing it by listening and responding to
% the major problems on this NG and not just a issolated incident that is only
% happened to one person  yeah there are alot of posts on this NG that are not
% positive about this game but can you find one other post that says their OS
% was corrupted. I am not saying this didnt happen but how much time do you
% think they need to spend addressing ONE (1) issolated problem    Its to bad
% that people like you can run someone off who has been here addressing the
% problems of this game    can you name another game manufaturerthat does this
% the way MS did         GOOD JOB!!!!!!!!!!!

Part of the problem here isn't that they are releasing a patch to fix
the product.  The problem is that they released a product that was
incomplete!!!  I don't mean a minor thing here or there.  But one that
had glaring problems.  The AI is not a bug, that was poor programming
and not just something that appeared after the product went gold.  The
poor frame rate problems, yeah, that only appeared after the product
went gold.  However, there is a new and emerging mentality that says,
yeah sell me shoddy merchandise, I have faith you can do it right.  Just
send me a patch.  Well, I for one don't necessarily have faith in a
company that can't get it right the first time to get it right after
they have my money.  If they could do it right, it should be right when
I hand over my money.  Maybe for some people $50 ain't anything to worry
about.  If that's the case, I sure wished I had those kinda problems.
<G>

BTW:  The ONE (1) issolated problem that CPR's team had to address over
and over was that the product was not complete and did not live up to
its hype.  

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% >However, I still think the real point here is that the game
% > should never have been released in it current state.

% I'm sure everyone here will agree with you on this point, but
% realistically, you can't blame them. Like it or not (I don't!),
% Christmas is commercialized. It's all about money...

And they ain't getting mine until it's done right.  Go ahead and feed
the machinery that produces sub-standard and unfinished products, just
because it's Christmas and the time of the year that people foolishly
forget the value of money.  As long as we continue to shovel $$$$ into
that hungry craw, we keep seeing the same results come out the other
end.  You reap what you sow.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jason,

First... its highly subjective determining if you were "ripped off"
Secondly... MANY people here do enjoy that sim.  The BEST sim out there
is also highly subjective.  You, me, or any other individual do not
determine if it is a rip off, the best sim, or an incomplete product for
everyone else.  EVERY individual has the right to make that distinction
for themself.  Do you consider it a ripoff.. if so, then it is to YOU...
maybe NOT for EVERYONE else.  Take the game back.

I do not have the game. I do not degrade it.  I do not praise it.
However, If I did purchase the product.... I have the right to MY
opinion.  I do not, however, have the right to verbally abuse someone
who is here to help those who need it and aid in making the product the
best it can be.  Dean would answer the same questions over and over and
over and no matter what answer he gave... It was always wrong.

If they game does not work on my P166 with 32 SDRAM etc etc but it does
on someone elses... that does not mean the game sucks and is worthless
because it doesnt work on MY machine!!!  It means there is obviously
something different with MY machine... whether it be software, hardware,
or settings oriented.

Everyone should try and remember...  for everyone who hates the game,
there is someone who loves and enjoys it.  The debate over whether it is
a sim or an arcade game is irrelevent.  If someone enjoys it... that is
all that matters.  Again... it is just a sim (I didnt say game guys and
gals!!!  ;)  ).

As for Dean,  I do not blame him for leaving. However, it is a shame for
those he helped and for those who wont have the opportunity to be
helped.
Because of those individuals who personally attacked an individual
trying to help and gather insight, others must go without.  Dean, I wish
you would have thought more about those who needed your help and insight
and not just those who are gonna *** even if the game was perfect in
every way.  They would then be ***ing because there is nothing to
*** about.

Scott B. Husted
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~sbhusted

Yeah I remember him maybe he realised he wasn't as good as he thought he was