rec.autos.simulators

I think you have mis-read the posts. It was not Alison who made "the worm
has turned" comment. I think Alison did a very fair and direct review, as
well as her posts to Dean. Comments like "freaking dork" and "stupid girl"
is what ruins r.a.s and makes people like Dean want to leave. Not the
intelligent, informative debate that Alison provided.

Don Chapman

<yawn>

And the same people will post saying how good the game is and
generally burying their heads in the sand.

You completely fail to grasp that the people who you say are, what was
it, "so called experts" are not trying to put the game down, but
trying to improve it. They are people who genuinely want to like the
game, and <gasp> can actually acknowledge that a product can be
flawed. People who would like to help the manufacturer, themselves,
and, by extension, you to deliver and enjoy a better product.

You don't like that people disagree with your point-of-view, okay
that's fine. Don't make the mistake of turning it around and thinking
people are putting CPR down - they're trying to improve it for you.
Tell me, if it's such an "EXCELLENT PRODUCT", why are Microsoft and
TRI rushing around delivering a patch pronto.....?

Cheers!
John

PS - I guess I'm one of the two people who "doesn't even own the
game", but if you've been diligently monitoring the group as you say
then you'll know that a friend bought it and I have played his copy
extensively. Guess what? It's got the same problems as the demo. Guess
what else? I personally can't wait for the patch and hope that it
makes me rush out and buy CPR, since in some respects even the current
version is a lot of fun for me.

Well, to quote you from 11/06/97:

"Debate and feedback is good. It encourages improvement.

The worst crime would be for us to assume CPR1.0 is perfect and to ignore
the feedback - and we can assure you we are not doing that.

Try the demo, post your thoughts (warts and all) and see what happens. Can't
hurt?"

In light of this quote from Dean, I'd say he wasn't aware of what real
criticism means.  Allison's review was fair within her experience.  Almost all
of the posts here regarding negative comments of CPR were intelligent,
reasonably thought out posts that expressed his/her frustrations with what
everyone saw as "potential", yet failed in some way or other.  Some people had
flawless experiences.  Some people couldn't run the game to their liking no
matter what (me).  I think that if a publisher publicly commits to sticking it
out no matter what ("warts and all"), I think that publisher has an obligation
to fulfill that commit.  

I'm sorry to see Dean leave.  I feel that is a failure on Microsoft's part in
supporting this game.

Regards,

John Wehman
Seagate Technology

That girl whom you so rudely refer to as "stupid", I thought posted a very
indepth report on CPR, she obviously spent a lot of time and effort ont
that review. I would applaud anyone taking the time to do that, and post
their review, as I'm sure it would be beneficial to both the consumer and
the developer. I would say that for either side, whether positive or
negative. I don't think Alison in any way is resposible for Dean leaving
the newsgroup, he has that choice, and has evidently made it. He also could
have chose to stay, and continue in the vein he has been. But don't blame
Alison for his leaving, that was his choice alone.

--
Don Burnette
I-65 Racing
Dburn on Ten

alison.. freaking dork.. Stupid girl posts like twice

The lady's review was nothing more, nothing less, than her personal view
of the game as run on her personal system.  By detailing the conditions
under which she was running the game she may have helped others,
experiencing the same or similar problems, in that they would realise
that they were not the only pebble on the beach.
This is something that would NOT have been achieved by Alison directing
her problems to Dean privately.
It was certainly more refreshing than some of the over-hyped ***that
we read in the print media under the classification "Review".

--
Bruce
(at work)

"An honest politician is one who, when he is bought, will stay bought."
(Simon Cameron)

"If you can't stand the heat........."

Alison's comments were completely non-abusive.....which is more than can
be said about yours.
If Dean took umbrage at the points that the lady was making, to the
extent of spitting the dummy, then that is his personal problem.  Alison
did not cast an evil spell on him and banish him from the NG.

Did you stop to think that the reason he may have left in a huff is that
he did not have any logical answers for the (valid) points raised?
Storming off in a fit of temper is usually ascribed to children when
they don't get their own way.

I rest my case.

--
Bruce
(at work)

"An honest politician is one who, when he is bought, will stay bought."
(Simon Cameron)

Excellently put, Richard.

--
Bruce
(at work)

"An honest politician is one who, when he is bought, will stay bought."
(Simon Cameron)

- Mike.

====================================================
 Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN
 I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"...
====================================================

<snip>
<snip>

It is a shame, because it is thanks to you that I purchased CART PR. I
read what all the flamers on r.a.s. had to say about the game, applied my
usual
usenet S/N filter, downloaded the demo, and played it on my P-133. I
even had to turn stuff off. I have since upgraded to a PII-300, Monster 3D
system, and have the full version of the game, which runs beautifully, and
has given me a true appreciation of what real life CART  drivers have to go
through to get their paychecks.

Anyhow, knowing that the concerns that people have in the game are being
addressed, and in an extremely timely (being a developer myself gives me
insight into what it takes to develop patches) fashion, and daily updates
about it from youpushed me over the edge. Microsoft gets a few more of my
bucks, and the one person that they can thank for that is you.

I would also gather that there are probably hundreds of other r.a.s.
lurkers out there that have similar stories.

I just want wish you and your team the best of luck, and hope that you
continue to develop this very promising sim to its utmost. I will be with
you every step of the way as a loyal consumer.

Sincerely,

--
Don Henry

% Dean,
%      I don't blame you for leaving for a second. Check my other posting
% just written a few minutes ago. I personally have never seen a
% representative of a company or business put so much effort and time into
% helping it's customers and that's not an exaggeration. You DEFINITELY have
% helped many, many, people with CPR and I hope you feel good about that. I
% wish I had people like you working for me. Keep up the good work on CPR.

Oh, come on and let's be grown up about this.  Many a Papyrus rep has
spent more time and took more heat than the CPR/Microsoft reps.  I am
not condoning some of the behavior by any of the r.a.s. citizenry.
But, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.  Don't for
one second believe that CPR/Microsoft's presence here has been one that
is/was wholly altruistic.  And don't doubt for a second that I believe
that it should be.  However, they are/were using this forum for
marketing and spin control.  To be perfectly honest, the post that
seemed to break the camel's back was not an abusive post.  In fact I
personally found some of the "official CPR" replies to the post to be
abusive.  I felt that there were some very valid issues being addressed
in the review of CPR that seems to have gotten Dean's goat.  Some were
answered some where not.

This whole issue got out of hand a long time ago.  It became a
"righteous" war.  Anytime anyone said something negative about CPR, the
defenders jumped down their throats for being too harsh on the product.
Anytime anyone glowing praised the product the detractors jumped down
their throat.  But, that's life in the anarchy of the usenet.  As I
said, if you can't stand the heat, don't go into the kitchen.

% Dave

% > "The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond to cries for help
% and
% > criticism, anymore."
% >
% > OK guys - I think that's about it for me on ras. My patience has run out.
% >
% > I'm joining the other sim publishers and leaving you to it. Sorry.
% >
% >

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

(snip)
Yeah but I bet her posted review and the following flames in Dean's
direction was the straw that broke the camel's back..
(unsnip)

If that's the case then the camel with such a weak back shouldn't have
been there in the first place.

--
Bruce
(at work)

"An honest politician is one who, when he is bought, will stay bought."
(Simon Cameron)

Sorry, Randy, but please -- get real. I have heard this statement so
many times I want to hurl, and it's always in the context of "oh, gosh
-- if these guys from Microsnuff come here in all their majesty and
someone says bad words to them, they will abandon all development on the
games we like! Boohoohoo." Great weeping and gnashing of teeth.

No, it's "bwaaaahaaahaaahaahaahaa!" The problem with people who climb
into a fishbowl -- especially those who climb in as "objective
observers" -- you know, like "digital journalists" -- is that the
fishbowl becomes their world. Realistically, what do you reckon the
total breathing population of RAS amounts to in terms of percentage of
the whole of MS, or anybody's, customer base for any given game/sim?

Here's a hint: it's a percentage that contains fewer than two digits.

For a company to rush-release a product with well-documented flaws, and
then send Ensign Schleppo into the lion's den for the first month of
that product's release...well, would *you* expect not to get singed a
bit? But here's old Dino -- he's put in his one-month term of service
and gotten fed up and decided to book. Not, however, before he takes the
highly-popular step of insulting everyone who disagrees with hte MS
party line on CPR. If ever a game NEEDED CPR, this is the one...

BTW, when I was on the Racing Information Services forum on CompuSlave,
I used to hear that happy horseshit all the time about how "real"
journalists and race teams would get the willies at the mere mention of
the word "Newsgroup"  -- in fact, the usual response is "Huh?" The
visibility of maniacal splinter groups like this one is so far below the
noise threshhold of everyday life, that nobody outside the fishbowl even
knows the fishbowl exists.

Grab some perspective, Randy -- this ain't the UN...

Bart Brown

Bart

I applaud MS for listening to the critics of the game and quickly
working on a patch that hopes to address many of the problems that have
been found.  However, I still think the real point here is that the game
should never have been released in it current state.

--
Eric T. Busch

http://ebusch.akorn.net

 "by abandoning what is perhaps the greatest concentration
 of sim racing knowledge anywhere."

Yeah, right. I'll tell you what. I have a mortgage/business/perso***loan
co. opening in another month or so. Why don't all the sim experts with
their great concentration of knowledge contact me and I'll set you up with
a business loan and you can create the perfect sim. I have no doubt it will
be the most incredible sim ever created. Maybe you can create some AI for
yourselves as well.