rec.autos.simulators

My initial criticism was admittedly provocatively worded, so I've tried to
put together a more thoughtful argument. Please don't flame me because I
like GPL really <g>.

I suppose there are 2 points about difficulty which keep getting discussed:

- is GPL realistic
- is it too difficult (no option to make it easy enough)

I know it's a slightly different era, but I've just finished reading a book
by Alf Francis, who was Sterling Moss's racing mechanic when Moss was racing
in the early fifties. Several times in the book Francis talks about Moss
turning up at a circuit - which he had never raced on before - and putting
in very decent lap times - and then going on to put up a good show at the
race. Lots of the other drivers who toured the circuits either
professionally or paying for their own drives could get round at reasonable
speeds, though obviously not quite as well as Moss!

Lots of you in this forum have put in scores of hours with GPL (indeed some
were involved from the very beginning with beta testing), not to count the
hours on other sims. Real drivers did not put in this amount of practise.
Hence my argument that it's not realistic.

Now, on to the 'is it too difficult' argument <g>.

Please try and put yourself in the position of most people - who want to be
able to get in the car and have a fun race. OK, so we won't win or even come
close to it, but we *must* be able to enjoy ourselves or else the game has
failed IMO.

Are you suggesting that GPL was aimed only at the very skilfull, dedicated
drivers who are prepared to put in scores of hours of practise before they
can do a decent full lap? This is not how it was marketed. I simply don't
believe this. Why would everybody have put in so much effort over several
years at huge expense to produce a product which only a relative handful of
people will enjoy? Surely that doesn't make sense.

Most of the responses I've received from my original post have basically
said:

- I'm not good enough
- I need to practise more
- I want to play an arcade game
- I need to focus more and stop looking at the countryside as I drive around

None of these answer my criticism. GPL is too difficult and that is why it's
not selling well, IMO. The only counter to my criticsm that I can see is
that, it's not too difficult, most people find the difficulty level to be OK
to drive - but few have taken this line.

Please don't get me wrong, I love GPL and have played it a lot. But I find
GPL too frustrating, the people who produced it have scored an own goal by
making it too difficult. Let's hope they learn from this and the next
products will be that much better as a result <g>.

Yes they did! Testing, testing.....And they did'nt exactly jump from
being 16 years into F1, or from being 40 and driving an Opel Corsa to a
1967 Formula one car either!

Cheers,

Matt_K, Norway.

Two things I think will help with the difficulty, maybe.  :-)

Get Jim Clark, or Dennis Hulme to coach you.  No, really!

You can adjust the RELS (RELative Strength) in the sim just like ICR/CART and
NASCAR.  Well, not just like that.

In each track file (?/GPL/TRACKS/Whichever Track) there's a Track Cofiguration
Setting file (track.ini).  If you open up that file you should see a line that
reads:

    [ GP ]
    dlong_speed_adj_coeff = 0.990000

(Papyrus's line description is:  value modifies dlong velocities (i.e. RELS) in
..LP)

Actually, that's what I've changed the setting to for Mexico.  It originally
read something like 1.042000.  Change that number to something less than 1.0 and
it will slow the AI cars/drivers down.

The other thing is once you get the Clarks, Hills and Bandini's slowed down to
around your fastest time for a particular track (you can check quickly by
accelerating the time in practice and watching the lap times)  go out and
practice with them.  But wait in the pits until one of the cars leaves and get
in behind him and stay there as long as you can stand it.  Stay fairly close but
several car lengths behind and just follow him around trying not to run into him
in the breaking zones.  It will probably seem slow in the turns, but you should
begin to notice it also feels more controllable.  After a while you'll get bored
driving behind him and start looking for a safe place to pass.  Go ahead a pass
and try to drive to stay on the track comfortably.  In a lap or two, maybe less,
you should come upon another car.  Stay behind him for a few laps.

When you start consistently lapping with the fastest drivers go back an adjust
the RELS a little higher.

Hope this helps.

-Mike

Don't forget that drivers were not nearly as 'dedicated' as they are now.
Even the professional drivers still had the attitude that racing should be
fun - whereas today winning is everything. If GPL is meant to simulate the
feeling of driving an F1 car in the late sixties - it slightly misses the
target for me because it's too frustrating.

Also, a lot of retirements and injuries were caused my mechanical failures,
not generally because the cars were so bl**dy difficult to drive. F1 teams
in the late sixties were clearly more 'professional' than was the case in
the fifties, but you would still get teams arriving at a circuit with a
newly designed and built car which had hardly been tested at all - just a
few laps done by the mechanics to run the engine in.

I also think you'll find that the best drivers did have a relatively fast
progression into formula 1. OK, so Moss was exceptional, but again they
didn't generally have years of apprenticeship through carting and the lower
formulas.

I never owned an Opel Corsa by the way, the closest was a Vauxhall Viva <g>.

That would be excellent.

It's all a matter of degree. I don't want it to be so easy that there's no
satisfaction in 'mastering' it. I just think it would be a better product if
the driving model was slightly easier and there were some more options to
make it less frustrating for learners.

Thanks - I wondered how to go about adjusting the .ini files. I'll give it a
go - at the moment I'm hopelessly off the pace at a few tracks, eg Monaco,
which I can hardly get round at all!

In the practises I do generally try and follow another car for a few laps -
this is a good way to learn how much to brake. It usually ends in tears
though, not to mention the fire and ***.

But surely that's exactly what you want? You wrote a little up the page...

I'm "only" 35, and I seem to have learned precious little in those years. But one thing that seems to repeat itself over and over again is the "no pain, no
gain" mantra. Nothing worth having's ever come easily for me... which may be why the only games software on my HD at the moment is Su-27 Flanker
and GPL.

My first reaction is if you don't enjoy*** onto the back of the field, you're probably driving the wrong sim :-)  I drive against 19 ai and I struggle in
races to get up to 10th... on a good day! But it's an incredible experience. I've never had this with any other sim and I'm beginning to wonder whether
we've finally seen sims come of age. In the past everyone's been "a gamer" to a greater or lesser extent. I still enjoy looking at demos, but at heart I just
want the best, most immersive  driving/flying experience I can get.

I fully expect within the next few years to have top start paying *much* more for my software. Now hardware can deliver such excellent levels of
simulation I think it's unfair to expect developers to stretch their talents across the whole spectrum... from POD to GPL in one piece of software.

I'm not saying that isn't possible, just wondering if -- given development times -- there are better things for programmers to be doing.

Real drivers have a few things in their favour. First and foremost, the drivers we know well were the best of their generation, not just Joe Average sitting
at his PC! Some people are just naturally good at things, and the ability to judge when a car's on the edge of its performance envelope -- although
something I'm sure you can learn -- must be something some drivers find easier to react to. It's about response times, instinct, skill, all that stuff.

They also have another advantage... they know they're going to die if they get it wrong! Well, they did then.

And, of course, there's that "seat of the pants" thing for feedback. That's not available to us, so you have to learn to listen hard and be gentle with the
controls... Oh hang on, now I'm telling you to practice more ;-)

Andrew McP... who agrees with the fact Papyrus could have made life simpler for themselves and the buying public with a few easily accessible skill
sliders, but finds himself increasingly at odds with the notion that one product can/should be all things to all men.

Your basic premise is wrong.

GPL is difficult for most people because driving racing cars at racing speed
is difficult for most people. The sim rewards and punishes the driver just
as a real car does. Driving anything on the road is not comparable. You may
like to think that, put into a 1967 Lotus 49 and given a couple of days (or
weeks) to practice, you'd be "there or thereabouts"; well, you wouldn't. GPL
isn't unrealistically difficult, it's unrealistically easy. It allows you to
make mistakes and live, to push beyond the limit and live, to try and try
and try again until you get it right. GPL set out to be, within the limits
of what's possible with domestic hardware, a realistic driving sim based on
1967 Grand Prix cars. These are mid-engined cars with limited grip,
indifferent brakes and 400bhp. I imagine you haven't driven anything with
400bhp - let alone weighing 1200 lbs, nor any single seater nor indeed
anything at all on a race track. What you have done is to read and possibly
misunderstand a book on racing in the '50s and draw some quite unwarranted
conclusions. Here's some advice: Stop worrying about whether it's
realistic - it is. Learn about car handling. Spend time on it. It can be
mastered. One of the big advantages of the early GP cars in GPL is that, on
the whole, when they get out of shape you've got time to light a
cigarette(metaphorically, of course) before you apply opposite lock. Try
that in F1Sim/MGPRS! I've yet to read one criticism concerning the
unrealistic level of difficulty or AI talent ( as in the whine "How come the
AIs can drive on cold tyres and I can't?") which was justified. Papyrus has
done a first-rate job in making GPL the most realistic sim so far available.
That fact alone will keep it selling for a long time to come. Will it
outsell F198? Of course not. It's not aimed at the same market. If you're
not comfortable with GPL, consider alternatives which allow you to be on the
pace very quickly without being a good driver; there are a lot of driving
games out there and I'm sure that some of them will give you what you're
looking for. On the other hand, GPL is a good enough sim that you'll learn a
lot about real driving if you persevere. Try.

John Klemantaski

But one thing that seems to repeat itself over and over again is the "no
pain, no
be why the only games software on my HD at the moment is Su-27 Flanker

It clearly depends on your approach to sims. My preference is obviously for
a little more fun and a little less pain <g>. It's just unfortunate that GPL
doesn't cater for my preference as well as it *could* and *should*.

you're probably driving the wrong sim :-)  I drive against 19 ai and I
struggle in
experience. I've never had this with any other sim and I'm beginning to
wonder whether
to a greater or lesser extent. I still enjoy looking at demos, but at heart
I just

You're better at GPL than me then. I can't complete a full race on the more
tricky circuits without crashing. I want an immersive and realistic
experience as well - but GPL is a mass market product, not an expensive
specialized one. With respect, it's you whose driving the wrong sim - if you
see what I mean ;) please don't take offence at this - I don't mean it in an
insulting way.

more for my software. Now hardware can deliver such excellent levels of
talents across the whole spectrum... from POD to GPL in one piece of
software.
times -- there are better things for programmers to be doing.

I haven't said or implied that this is what I want - you are taking things
to extremes. How difficult would it be for the programmers to allow racing
in trainers for example? One thing is certain, if the product doesn't sell
then either we will have to pay more - or developers won't undertake
projects if they suspect they will be loss making (which company was it that
recently laid off lots of staff?).

drivers we know well were the best of their generation, not just Joe Average
sitting
to judge when a car's on the edge of its performance envelope -- although
easier to react to. It's about response times, instinct, skill, all that
stuff.

So basically you can find no compromise then. Joe Average will not get any
enjoyment from GPL. GPL will therefore sell roughly 100 copies by this line
of argument - being the number of really top class sim drivers.

get it wrong! Well, they did then.
not available to us, so you have to learn to listen hard and be gentle with
the
for themselves and the buying public with a few easily accessible skill
product can/should be all things to all men.

I touched on this point in the GPL full screen thread. If the perception is
that the sim is harder to drive because there are less sensory inputs than
in a real car, the developers should IMO compensate for this by making
compromises.

What exactly is wrong with giving more *options* to make it easier? Would
you prefer it if you couldn't reset, or use escape to return to the pits, or
if you had to wait 48 hours after every crash for the car to be rebuilt?
This would be more realistic. Indeed, maybe there could be enforced
hospitalisation after each accident and Sierra could send some flowers to
your sick bed after every crash <EBG>.

I'm sure the average man in the street of that era would think the
same - he, however, was not Jim Clark.

Not so. Clark progressed from local events all the way up to F1, and
while there wasn't the multi-layer structure and progression we find
these days, there was a definite learning ladder.

Perhaps, but that is different from saying that what it is at present
misses the mark as to what it is trying to achieve.

Cheers!
John

Maybe that would be a good idea? I guarantee you that you'll find
people who believe that to be the case, and when you are good at GPL
and you find people lunging for impossible gaps simply because "I
can't be hurt so might as well try it" then you may think that it's
maybe not such a bad idea.

GPL doesn't offer enough options for you, fine, that's always going to
be the case - nothing can appeal to all.

Cheers!
John

Seriously, I think GPL is too difficult and I think it is too unrealistic. I
know this is blesphamy, but this is the beauty with NG's, even blesphamy is
allowed :o). It's the good old freedom of speech thingy.

My fastest at Monza is a 1:28.04 and it's with a Thrustmaster Formula 1 Pro,
making me a stick shifter and not a very slow one :o). I have well over 1000
hours in racing sim; GP2, F1RS and GPL. It's the same amount of time it would
take to drive over 600 real F1 races. The names you see in the hotlap charts of
GPL also have around 1000 hours or more in racing sims. I dont think they are
there because the sucked the first time they tried a racing simulator, on the
contrary they noticed that this was something they were good at, in other words
they were talented. They pretty easy ended up on their first hotlap chart; N2,
GP2, ICR2, etc... but soon someone beat them, which forced them to put in
another couple of laps at the track. This is how they ended up with 1000 hours
or more in racing sims.

What I'm trying to say is that I believe all these sim racers are talented in
working a steering wheel, two pedals and a gear changer, and setting up the car.
In the hotlap charts of GPL we find drivers who were fastest in N2, ICR2 and
GP2. This is of course not a coincidence. They are talented drivers with a lot
of practice behind them.

The drivers who raced back in 1967 was born in the 30's and grew up during the
40's and 50's. How many people do you think had the possibility to test if they
were a talented racing driver in the 40's and the 50's? Compare that to how many
people who have the possibility to test there talent in racing sims today. How
many Thrustmaster steering wheels has been sold? I know N2 sold around 2 million
copies and GP2 around 1 million.

Is GPL too difficult? I dont think it was that hard driving straight at 300 kph
at Monza back then as it is in GPL. I dont think it was that hard to brake
consistently lap after lap, as it is in GPL. I dont think it was that hard to
feel what the car was doing back then as it is in GPL. I know we have a 2D
picture and no g-forces, whereas they had both 3D and g-forces, but this only
means that we need more feedback to make the experience as difficult as in real
life. Any programmer can make a racing sim too hard, even impossible, or make it
too easy making it an arcade (easier than it really is), but very few can make
it just right. I think Papy made it too hard.

Is GPL too unrealistic? I think it's unrealisticly hard to drive in GPL as you
probably already figured out :o). I also think the AI is a bit unrealistic. I've
been starting to fiddle with the npt_override in gpl_ai.ini and when I set it
too 1.0 Mr Clark are always qualifying in the low 1:29's. I've done a couple of
laps in the Ferrari and also studied the other AI's driving the Ferrari. I can
only do around 305 - 306 kph in the Ferrari on the straights, but the AI are
hitting 312 every time, so I'm guessing they must have a more powerful engine
than mine, thus unrealistic. They also almost always outbrake me into the first
Lesmo and Parabolica, they probably have better brakes. If I brake perfectly I
can brake as good as they, but never better, not when the npt_override is at 1.0
anyway. I also see them do some fast side to side movements on the straights and
in corners that I cant possibly do without loosing the rear and I have my cars
as far from oversteer as possible.

Papyrus has their physics engine running at around 300 Hz, thus they are
sampling the reality 300 times per second. Imagine recording sound with a
sampling frequency at 300 Hz :o). The comparison is not completely fair, but I'm
hoping it puts a finger on a little problem. When sampling you miss information.
The problem here is that you have to dampening your physics engine no matter how
fast it's running. This dampening is probably a science in itself, thus very
hard to get right. I dont think Papy got it quite right.

/Christer, the blesphamer :o)

NAR Northeast Regional Contest Board site - points and more...

On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:09:55 -0000, "Lawrence Edwards"

   In GPL, you have to learn how to drive the car, from square one.
While it's like a real car, the differences between reality and sim
(lack of physical feedback) and the different performance envelope
(400 hp, minimal weight, and inefficient tires) make it a far
different experience from what most people are used to in real life.
And if you want to compare it to the 900 HP, infinite downforce,
cornering-on-rails, braking-on-a-dime CART or F1 car sims of today,
its even more different.

   OK, Lawrence, so how many hours *do* you have on the track?  What
background do you have with auto sims?

   I'm not asking to see who has the biggest...  I'm asking because
its pertinent to your GPL experience thus far (and the questions it
raises).

   For me, I've driven auto sims for close to five years and I prefer
Papyrus's offerings in the genre.  I'm a bit rusty (I haven't driven
much in the past year or two, none at all over the summer).  I bought
GPL the day it came out and upgraded my computer to enjoy it to the
fullest (hmmm, $750 to play a $35 game... yup, hardcore! :).  I found
GPL difficult and challenging at first (but drivable).  After about
15-20 hours, I started to really get a feel for the cars and can throw
them around some of the circuits pretty well now (one of my better
times is 1:07.5 at Watkins Glen in the default Eagle, for instance).
In fact, I find GPL to be one of the most *natural to drive* sims I've
seen yet (I'd almost say "easiest to drive" if you wouldn't throw
tomatos at me :).

   So how does your experience with GPL compare?  How many hours have
you put into it?  And think about how many hours you will be putting
into it, in the months ahead.  GPL is definitely not instant
gratification, but it can offer great satisfaction.  

   What control device are you using?  The keyboard is pointless,
joysticks work for some (like me), wheels and pedals are prefered by
many.

   Are you keeping the frame rate high (over 30)?  If you run at a
lower frame rate, controlability becomes a problem.

   If your problem is keeping it on the track, practice with the lower
level trainers.  The lowest has ~200 HP and very low grip and is good
for learning to deal with engine torque and cornering.  The advanced
trainer has similar HP with better tire grip, so its good for a taste
of higher speed cornering.  

   I haven't used traction control or ABS, but I would assume it would
make the sim *very* drivable.  Are you using those?  Auto-shifting
(which I *do* use) also has its disadvantages, as it revs high (torque
problems in 1st and 2nd) and seems to like to shift at the most
inopportune times (ie: while cornering). :)  Manual shifting can help
controlability in such cases.

   And if it makes you feel any better, I too have trouble sometimes
keeping it on the track.  As you gain experience, you will see that
the car is actually very forgiving (far more than other sims with
radial tires and high downforce) *if you only exceed its limits by a
small margin*.  As a novice, you far exceed the limits, and fly off
the track as a result.  With increased experience, you learn the
limits, and learn how to tip-toe around them.

   Another factor with keeping it on the track is driving at your own
pace, not over your head.  I can't count the number of times I've
struggled to make a pass (for instance, at Rouen against similar-speed
AI cars) only to fly off the road when I over-cook the next turn.

   If your problem is that you want to run competitively with other
cars, there are many ways to tweak the games or its AI.  You can set
up a new driver profile to race in the trainer classes.  You can
change the AI speeds at each specific track.  Of course, altering the
AI will result in non-optimal racing, which is one reason why Papyrus
did not support this from the start.  But its better than nothing.
For me, my favorite fix is simply reversing the order of the AI
drivers, so the first drivers selected are the poorest.  The nice
thing about this fix is that you can simply increase the field size,
to include better and better drivers, as your skills improve (and
you're not altering the AI at all).  Search Deja News or the GPL web
sites for more info.  

   Stick to one car (the Eagle is very stable for me, and I'm still
using the defult set-ups) and to one track (Monza or perhaps Watkins
Glen) while learning.  Once you get around to learning new tracks,
print out the track map for reference and use the included replays to
learn corner speeds, braking points, etc.

   Using all of these options available to us, I can't see how GPL
*could* be made any easier, aside from a totally unrealistic arcade
game that "looks like" GPL (ie, the arcade mode of N2).

   Just as an aside, I've had the game for 5 weeks, probably played an
hour or two per day, and I've only driven one car and learned four or
five tracks (well enough to run mid-pack in a novice race) and haven't
hardly fooled with set-ups at all yet.  That gives you some idea of
the depth of the sim...

   There are *tons* of other sims out there that are easier and can
provide enjoyment.  There's only one GPL, and we diehards are most
thankful for it.  It may not satisfy the masses, but the depth of the
sim and the time spent developing the skills is part of our enjoyment.

Forgive him for he knows not what he is missing...  :)

Jeff Vincent - jvinc...@wizvax.net - www.wizvax.net/jvincent/nercb.html
NAR Northeast Regional Contest Board site - points and more...

The simple fact is that I and many others have found GPL to be an immensely
satisfying experience. Some of us have raced cars, some haven't.  I raced
(by very happy coincidence!) a 1967 F3 car in Monoposto and saloons in
Production Saloons in the early 70's but if you think that I'm lying go talk
to Alison Hine, whose excellent "Eagle Woman" web site has been so much help
to so many people, who has recent experience in single seater racing in the
US and who was a very active member of the beta testing team and let her
explain just how realistic GPL is.

But then maybe everyone is lying to you. Maybe GPL is unrealistically
difficult. If that's the case, then there are more than a few people
delivering competitive times in GPL who could have given Jim Clark, Dan
Gurney, Lorenzo Bandini et al a very hard time. Well maybe but I don't think
so.

In the end, the loser is you. Continue to insist that it's the game not you
that's at fault and you'll learn nothing and miss out on one of the great
sim experiences. Take the time to learn and it'll be you taking that
chequered flag.

John Klemantaski