Hi Jeff
Jeff Vincent wrote in message <3645ea29.10495...@news.wizvax.net>...
>Warning, long rambling road ahead! :)
I like long rambling roads, not the ones in GPL though <VBG>.
I'm going to clip a lot of your original reply - otherwise this message will
become a small novel....
> Fair enough, but you're comparing apples and oranges. In the first
>paragraph, you talk about Moss's (un)familiarity with *a circuit*. In
>the second, you are talking about our (un)familiarity with the GPL
>game engine (our "car"). Moss had plenty of time in his car, and was
>intimately familiar with it. After that, learning a new circuit was a
>relatively easy process.
Please define "plenty", Moss had very limited experience of many of the cars
he drove. He changed teams several times during his relatively short career.
True, he did an awful lot of driving from age 14, but he is famous for his
versatility. He could get in an unfamiliar car and drive fast - that is why
he's one of the best IMO. Moss was definitely, unquestionably, often
unfamiliar with the car and the circuit or course.
> Considering this is a first cut at NASCAR3 (Papyrus's cash cow), it
>does make economic sense. The feedback from GPL with be helpful in
>shaping N3. And, between what we've heard here and the
>super-simplistic arcade mode of N2, N3 had *better* have some sort of
>arcade mode to please the masses. But that not who's buying GPL (or
>even the target market) in the first place.
I am providing feedback - and trying to back it up with sensible arguments.
I see where you're coming from - although I personally reckon that Sierra
were trying to make and market a product which would be a "big seller". I
suppose we shall never know unless someone "in the know" puts us right.
>>Most of the responses I've received from my original post have basically
>>said:
>>- I'm not good enough
>>- I need to practise more
>>- I want to play an arcade game
>>- I need to focus more and stop looking at the countryside as I drive
around
> Spoken like true die-hards. :)
I forgot the condescending "you don't have a clue" / "nonsense" response as
well <g>
> OK, Lawrence, so how many hours *do* you have on the track? What
>background do you have with auto sims?
> I'm not asking to see who has the biggest... I'm asking because
>its pertinent to your GPL experience thus far (and the questions it
>raises).
> For me, I've driven auto sims for close to five years and I prefer
>Papyrus's offerings in the genre. I'm a bit rusty (I haven't driven
>much in the past year or two, none at all over the summer). I bought
>GPL the day it came out and upgraded my computer to enjoy it to the
>fullest (hmmm, $750 to play a $35 game... yup, hardcore! :). I found
>GPL difficult and challenging at first (but drivable). After about
>15-20 hours, I started to really get a feel for the cars and can throw
>them around some of the circuits pretty well now (one of my better
>times is 1:07.5 at Watkins Glen in the default Eagle, for instance).
>In fact, I find GPL to be one of the most *natural to drive* sims I've
>seen yet (I'd almost say "easiest to drive" if you wouldn't throw
>tomatos at me :).
> So how does your experience with GPL compare? How many hours have
>you put into it? And think about how many hours you will be putting
>into it, in the months ahead. GPL is definitely not instant
>gratification, but it can offer great satisfaction.
> What control device are you using? The keyboard is pointless,
>joysticks work for some (like me), wheels and pedals are prefered by
>many.
> Are you keeping the frame rate high (over 30)? If you run at a
>lower frame rate, controlability becomes a problem.
> If your problem is keeping it on the track, practice with the lower
>level trainers. The lowest has ~200 HP and very low grip and is good
>for learning to deal with engine torque and cornering. The advanced
>trainer has similar HP with better tire grip, so its good for a taste
>of higher speed cornering.
> I haven't used traction control or ABS, but I would assume it would
>make the sim *very* drivable. Are you using those? Auto-shifting
>(which I *do* use) also has its disadvantages, as it revs high (torque
>problems in 1st and 2nd) and seems to like to shift at the most
>inopportune times (ie: while cornering). :) Manual shifting can help
>controlability in such cases.
> And if it makes you feel any better, I too have trouble sometimes
>keeping it on the track. As you gain experience, you will see that
>the car is actually very forgiving (far more than other sims with
>radial tires and high downforce) *if you only exceed its limits by a
>small margin*. As a novice, you far exceed the limits, and fly off
>the track as a result. With increased experience, you learn the
>limits, and learn how to tip-toe around them.
> Another factor with keeping it on the track is driving at your own
>pace, not over your head. I can't count the number of times I've
>struggled to make a pass (for instance, at Rouen against similar-speed
>AI cars) only to fly off the road when I over-cook the next turn.
> If your problem is that you want to run competitively with other
>cars, there are many ways to tweak the games or its AI. You can set
>up a new driver profile to race in the trainer classes. You can
>change the AI speeds at each specific track. Of course, altering the
>AI will result in non-optimal racing, which is one reason why Papyrus
>did not support this from the start. But its better than nothing.
>For me, my favorite fix is simply reversing the order of the AI
>drivers, so the first drivers selected are the poorest. The nice
>thing about this fix is that you can simply increase the field size,
>to include better and better drivers, as your skills improve (and
>you're not altering the AI at all). Search Deja News or the GPL web
>sites for more info.
> Stick to one car (the Eagle is very stable for me, and I'm still
>using the defult set-ups) and to one track (Monza or perhaps Watkins
>Glen) while learning. Once you get around to learning new tracks,
>print out the track map for reference and use the included replays to
>learn corner speeds, braking points, etc.
> Using all of these options available to us, I can't see how GPL
>*could* be made any easier, aside from a totally unrealistic arcade
>game that "looks like" GPL (ie, the arcade mode of N2).
> Just as an aside, I've had the game for 5 weeks, probably played an
>hour or two per day, and I've only driven one car and learned four or
>five tracks (well enough to run mid-pack in a novice race) and haven't
>hardly fooled with set-ups at all yet. That gives you some idea of
>the depth of the sim...
Phew, big breath.... <g>
I'll try and answer as many of those questions as possible.
I first started driving racing games/sims in about 1981 - with Revs, written
by Geoff Crammond for the BBC computer. I haven't stopped since. I have no
idea how many hours I've spent, but I bought GP2 on the day it came out and
have been racing off-line in a Compuserve forum for a couple of years. I
probably have in excess of 1000? hours on GP2.
I have also driven Nascar a quite a lot (say 100 hours - admittedly a few
years ago now), Nascar2 a little, but only the demo of ICR2. I like flight
sims, MS Flight Simulator, Flight Unlimited II and EF2000 are probably the 3
I fly most.
In GP2 my times aren't the best, but they're not too bad either - but then
hopefully this discussion isn't an I'm better than you one <g>. I recognize
that GP2 is a very different kettle of fish from GPL.
I bought GPL on 25 October. I've had the demo for a long time, but only put
in say 20 hours because I found it so difficult and people in this forum
assured me the full game would be easier. I've put in about 20 hours of seat
time in the full version so far, although I often leave it after a while in
dispair....
I'm running a PII400 with 12MB Voodoo2, with frame rates over 30 at almost
all times.
I use a GP500 wheel and pedals from Interactive Racing. I've had the
recentering mechanism modified so if anyone else is reading this please
don't flame me about this being a bad wheel - it's not.
I've never driven a single seater, although I've been carting a few times.
Each time in carting I've reached the final and once I won with fastest lap.
I'm not totally lame behind the wheel.
I've not "read and misinterpreted" one book, unlike what one respondent in
this forum implied. I've read Ayrton Senna's book, Jackie Stewart's book and
been a subscriber to F1 Racing and various other driving related magazines
etc over the years. I like F1 a lot - although Bernie Ecclestone is slowly
changing that.
> Is it not selling well? Any hard data? My latest CompUSA flyer
>says its a "best seller". :) Seriously, my impression is that it is
>meeting expectations.
Judging by the various charts posted on the net it is well down the list
already. I even saw it at 92 in one chart of PC software for last week. I'll
admit that I don't have concrete evidence one way or the other.
> There are *tons* of other sims out there that are easier and can
>provide enjoyment. There's only one GPL, and we diehards are most
>thankful for it. It may not satisfy the masses, but the depth of the
>sim and the time spent developing the skills is part of our enjoyment.
>Forgive him for he knows not what he is missing... :)
This isn't the point though is it. I like GPL, it has some really fantastic
features - I love the era and the driving model is more sophisticated than
any other sim. My argument is that it is very difficult without enough
options to make it easier. Giving an option which would allow easier races
would not be difficult and should have been done IMO. I also think that.
fundamentally, it's too difficult to be realistic.
Thanks for your other suggestions - all of which are eminently sensible IMO.
