unless the car engine is dead, not even in a Formula Ford, which has a very
quite engine, relatively speaking.
/Christer
> In any case, I can't see how this is different from real life anyway.
/Christer
/Christer
I need to come back to you re airborne. I'd be surprised if GPL hasn't got
that right. I've never done it in a single seater but I have in a road car
so more extrapolation I'm afraid! I need to go round Mosport to see what
you're describing. Yes, braking is/was easier than in GPL but I do think
that some form of resistance in the pedal would make a big difference to
being able to hold the brakes at the point of lockup. What controller are
you using? I'm off to see your Monza lap now. Back to you later.
>From your post it seems as if braking in reality was easier than in GPL?
>I really dont think there are sim racers thinking they can be competitive
in an
>F1 after a couple of days in one :o). I do believe that there are sim
racers
>thinking that given the same possibilities as for example Micheal
Schumacher has
>had in his life, they would be competitive :o).
>/Christer
>> I think he just wants attention! I'm amazed at the patience that so many
>> people have showed when replying to him.Re your questions, I have to
>> extrapolate to answer them. My F3 Macon had around 150bhp rather than
400 -
>> top speed was around 130 mph not 190 so we're dealing with something very
>> like one of the trainers. In general the answer is yes, by modern road
car
>> standards it needed a very high level of input and concentration. The GPL
>> cars are actually relatively forgiving by virtue of their tyres. Early
>> slick-shod cars were pigs to drive because the chassis designs were
>> basically unchanged. They had much more grip but gave no warning when
they
>> let go. Straight-line stability is always an issue where aerodynamics
aren't
>> used correctly (or at all, as in 1967). In a single seater (or anything
>> built for the track) the effects are exaggerated by the lack of
compliance
>> in the steering and suspension, making the car respond to every input. In
a
>> road car you can be driving at 90 mph and probably move the steering
wheel
>> two or three inches off centre without getting much in the way of
response
>> because the *** bushes in the steering rack and those in the
suspension
>> take up the slack. Not so in a race car. Back in the late '60s at 130mph
or
>> so, things were twitchy and the GPL cars feel right to me bearing in mind
>> their much higher top speed. Braking consistency wasn't difficult - there
>> was always a marker point somewhere - but brake fade was a problem. I
don't
>> know what you mean by "jump". Explain please.
>> Obviously there's an issue with the controllers that we all use. They
don't
>> do a good job, particularly in as demanding environment as GPL (no feel
at
>> all in the brake pedal) and you have to compensate for that. The biggest
>> issue though is that of people's expectations. People really do think
that
>> they can jump into a Formula One car and be competitive within a couple
of
>> days (or is that hours?). It's sad. Track driving is more different than
>> anyone who hasn't done it can possibly imagine. Nothing looks or feels
the
>> way you thought it would and, from personal experience as a ***ager who
>> enjoyed power-sliding his parents' cars on the public roads and thought
he
>> could step into a race car, it's chastening to find out just how slow you
>> really are at first. Then you start learning.
>> I have very fond memories of this period of racing. In 1968 I was taken
to
>> the Grand Prix Drivers' Association showing of "Grand Prix" - which as
you
>> might imagine made a BIG impression so I'm biased in that sense; but I
spent
>> a lot of time at race tracks as spectator and competitor and, as much as
any
>> game can, GPL has captured the driving experience of that era
wonderfully.
>> Nice Monza time. You must send me your setup - I'm still in the high 28s.
>> John Klemantaski
>> >/Christer, 1:28.04 at Monza and a curious little fellow, isnt' he :o)?
>> >> Lawrence
>> >> The simple fact is that I and many others have found GPL to be an
>> immensely
>> >> satisfying experience. Some of us have raced cars, some haven't. I
raced
>> >> (by very happy coincidence!) a 1967 F3 car in Monoposto and saloons in
>> >> Production Saloons in the early 70's but if you think that I'm lying
go
>> talk
>> >> to Alison Hine, whose excellent "Eagle Woman" web site has been so
much
>> help
>> >> to so many people, who has recent experience in single seater racing
in
>> the
>> >> US and who was a very active member of the beta testing team and let
her
>> >> explain just how realistic GPL is.
>> >> But then maybe everyone is lying to you. Maybe GPL is unrealistically
>> >> difficult. If that's the case, then there are more than a few people
>> >> delivering competitive times in GPL who could have given Jim Clark,
Dan
>> >> Gurney, Lorenzo Bandini et al a very hard time. Well maybe but I don't
>> think
>> >> so.
>> >> In the end, the loser is you. Continue to insist that it's the game
not
>> you
>> >> that's at fault and you'll learn nothing and miss out on one of the
great
>> >> sim experiences. Take the time to learn and it'll be you taking that
>> >> chequered flag.
>> >> John Klemantaski
>> >> >You're right, I haven't driven a single seater. I would be interested
to
>> >> >know if you have? If you have driven in a 1960's formula 1 car in a
race
>> >> >then OK, you would be in a better position to judge......
>> >> >>I imagine you haven't driven anything with
>> >> >>400bhp - let alone weighing 1200 lbs, nor any single seater nor
indeed
>> >> >>anything at all on a race track. What you have done is to read and
>> >> possibly
>> >> >>misunderstand a book on racing in the '50s and draw some quite
>> unwarranted
>> >> >>conclusions.
>> >--
>> >http://www.racesimcentral.net/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
>> >racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times,
cause
>> noone
>> >has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).
>--
>http://www.racesimcentral.net/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
>racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause
noone
>has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).
Thanks, I'll see if I can get hold of it.
- Michael
I also drove single seater race cars. I started with a Formula Vee in the
middle seventies. GPL is actually pretty close to that experience
(especially the novice trainer). I wasn't competitive the first time out.
I guess the whole thread about how difficult GPL is could be answered by
the articule I read at Eagle Woman's site when I first started driving GPL -
"I never feel really comfortable at a track until I've done about 1000
laps", so sayth Alison, so I believe.
You're right, but this seems to be the Holy Grail of ***. The thing about multiple
monitor/PC support is it could work today, not the day after tomorrow :-)
Also, there's something spooky about the sight of someone using 3d specs/headsets.
Whenever you see them on the TV they look...well, a bit sad, locked in their own little world.
Somehow having the monitor means you can at least -- in theory -- share the experience a
little...even if no-one else in the house wants to, at least they can see what you're up to.
I'm also biased because my left eye's pretty useless (all peripheral vision, no focus) and VR
specs and anything stereoscopic are pretty much wasted on me :-)
Andrew McP
There's a lot of crowd-followers, I'll grant you that. Flocking is an instinctive part of human
nature though... safety in numbers etc, just like being the underdog has a similar attraction
to certain personality types. Usenet psychology isn't all that different to that of any other form
of human interaction.
I haven't had much to say around here until GPL because, to be quite frank, I didn't enjoy
any of the competition very much. I still had ICR2, GP2, and Nascar2, but they didn't satisfy
me the way controlling an Su27 did, so that's where my attention was focused. But the GPL
demo changed that and the full release -- while not perfect -- has met Su27's level of
simulation and raises the bar several notches.
The main split wrt GPL seems to be between those for whom the negative factors are a big
deal, and those who are so busy having the best sim time of their lives that they can't be
bothered to worry about the flaws too much.
Neither side is entirely right. But one side seems to be having a lot more fun!
Andrew McP... having fun ;-)
> > Perhaps lookleft/lookright
> > running on satellite monitors?
> Wouldn't that be superb? Given the ridiculous price of bottom end hardware, a couple of low
> spec PCs networked to give low res peripheral vision would be amazing. Mind you, it'd need
> a lot of tweaking to get right (the view angle might totally***up your perspective is it
> wasn't right).
> I doubt Win98's multiple monitor support could ever be much use for this... not unless you
> could run under NT and utilise a dual CPU machine and persuade three gfx accelerators to
> use different monitors. The 3 PC solution's probably cheaper and simpler!
% Neither side is entirely right. But one side seems to be having a lot more fun!
Count me in as one of those thoroughly having FUN!
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
If only!!!
I was watching a tape some in car footage of Jackie Stewart the other day
driving a March in 1970. This car had little front wings and a rear wing
(not a large high one but one kind of moulded out of the rear body work).
It was unreal he was driving on a road circuit that was quite twisty,
don't know which one. He was driving the thing like it was a rally car.
Lots and Lots of wheel work. His wheel work was quite incredible to watch
yet the car was very stable, straight and smooth on the track.
I thought my wheel work in GPL was excessive, but compared to Jackie
Stewart's it is childs play.
Rob Yates
Cheers!
John
> > What we really need is good VR Glasses
> You're right, but this seems to be the Holy Grail of ***. The thing about multiple
> monitor/PC support is it could work today, not the day after tomorrow :-)
> Also, there's something spooky about the sight of someone using 3d specs/headsets.
> Whenever you see them on the TV they look...well, a bit sad, locked in their own little world.
> Somehow having the monitor means you can at least -- in theory -- share the experience a
> little...even if no-one else in the house wants to, at least they can see what you're up to.
> I'm also biased because my left eye's pretty useless (all peripheral vision, no focus) and VR
> specs and anything stereoscopic are pretty much wasted on me :-)
> Andrew McP
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~HOSHUMUNGUS
and
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm
> Hi Zonker
> I think perhaps we all need to take a step back and think about what effect
> our language has on people. There are real people in this NG with real
> feelings, which can get hurt. Often this is unintentional, or things are
> said in the heat of the moment which one regrets later.
> I think using "nazi" as an insult is too strong, although I know what you
> are getting at.
I get a little aggro when I see a post trying to put emphasis on trivia when GPL has so
many other things that should have been done and some of which hopefully will be done -
especially online stabilty. I don't really believe he took himself too seriously anyway. I
certainly hope not! :)
Nah, just relax and say what you think. I like a bit of colour with my technobabble! :)
Trying to be overly good mannered might limit one's ability to express themselves the way
they want to. Just tell me what you REALLY think! And then I'll tell you what I REALLY
think! LOL
--
Byron Forbes
Captain of Team Lightning Bolt
http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS
and
http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm
Well, i usually keep out of NG discussions but this one...
can't resist.
I'm not the slowest on the track...gettin a 29 at monza and a 28 at
zandvoort(loooooooove zandvoort..but then i'm dutch:)
I do it with a sidewinder pro(the stick) which has everything on it,
(no pedals/rudders yet:( )
I guess with a wheel, or pedals i could get a bit faster.
Thing with drivin cars...and tihs goes most for GPL cause it's such a
realistic model...is you need feedback.
For example GP2 was nice...but if you knew the track you could set
times totally impossible in real life...IMO because the modelling
simply wasn't up to what GPL is giving.
In my view GPL would become 'easier' if you felt the car slide under
your butt...feel the wheels loosing grip...feel the pressure you put
on the brakes increase if you brake harder...feel the lockup thru the
brakepedal....and so on and so on...but i guess for now this is just a
dream of future technology.
I'm praying for a good force feedback patch...cause then i will get me
one of them funky wheels just for this sim.
to me GPL is both the ultimate frustration and the ultimate
satisfaction/fun in the carsim arena...truly great pece of work.
I do think the AI has some annoying things mentioned earlier in this
thread...they go thru the sandpit in the parabolica as if they were on
normal tarmac...they move left/right on straights very drastically and
don't loose grip when they do...their braking is always the same..as
someone said..can brake with them...but never outbrake them...they
always have the perfect non wheelspin start(at the top of the grid
that is)
Well...nothing is perfect but GPL is getting migty close.
Willem