rec.autos.simulators

What a man does in the privacy of his own home is... hang on, which NG are we in? S'cuse me while I
just slip out of this leather gear.

That's better. I think for me the bottom line is I'm willing to forgive Papyrus *anything* for giving me such
an incredible driving experience. There are things I'd "like", for instance  I'd love a shift-r equivalent to
restart a race (as in previous Papyrus sims), but while I'm going through the screens to restart I use the
time to beat some sense into my head... "You *will* avoid the AI cars, you *will* take it easy on the 1st
lap, etc etc etc". There are other annoyances, but nothing in life's perfect :-)

Ah, could I agree with. Should? I just buy the software, it's not for me to dictate the rules. This  
"customer is always right" thing has gone way too far in society. I'd have paid 100ukp for this, some
wouldn't pay 5. Horses for courses.

Bet I'm not! :-)) I just think it's *my* fault I don't finish, not Papyrus's. That sounds harsh, but it's true. I
wouldn't dream of blaming Mindscape/Eagle Dynamics because I'm scraping along the bottom of the
Flanker ladder. I love flying their plane, I'm just no good at it!

Not at all, we're both on the same side. I just think the thing that makes GPL a unique and distinctive
product in an overloaded market place is what some don't want to face up to. I'm torn between saying
Papyrus should do what they do best, and saying they should make as much money as possible.
Depends what their goals are. All you can say at the moment is they've developed a strong user base
which is guaranteed to support them in their simulation strategy. That's quite an asset in a volatile
market. There's also something to be said for writing the sims that everyone *wants* to be able to drive
whether they can or not with any degree of success.

I suspect GPL will sell more copies in the UK than Nascar or ICR1/2. Don't quote me on that though! This
may mean it can be a relative success without breaking records.

Another of my problems is that I have a rough grasp of what's involved in games programming. A simple
option is only a simple option on paper. Working it into the main code, debugging, beta testing, all adds
time. Maybe there'll be a patch for some of this stuff. Maybe not. I'm just happy I can drive the sim now,
not q199!

Good point... mind you,  I've never tried so I didn't realise it wasn't possible. I'd rather be bottom of
Division One then top of Division 2 ;-)

Andrew McP... enjoying the challenge of climbing Everest, not jumping on the ski-lift ;-)

I find stuff like this very frustrating. I don't see anyone being religious about this thing. What I see is lots
of people getting *really* enthusiastic about something which has genuinely revolutionised their racing
sim experience. No-one should have to apologise for that, and for wanting to pass on that enthusiasm,
to help others accept GPL's  limits and reach for them instead of worrying about what might have been.

Sure you can make religious comparisons if you want, but that's to fall back on old cliches when you
should be out there learning to drive :-)

Andrew "Job's Comforter" McP

 But, Grand Prix 2 is still a very tough sim to win consistently, at
least in "Expert Mode".

 Otoh, GP2 has five A/I settings, from Rookie, to Ace. Ace is very
tough. Rookie is very easy.

 Why GPL didn't bother to include this type of option, I'll never
know. It would have been -very- easy to do, as witnessed by the A/I
tweaks that already can be downloaded (it's easy to slow the A/I cars
down). GPL should also have included a simple "save-game" feature too.

 Yes it's tough, GPL takes practice. But, A/I difficulty could
-easily- be added to GPL (via patch). They also could make the
driver-car stick like glue, or slide all over the place.

 No need to wait for the next product. A fairly simple patch is
needed, that's all.

 Options, what a concept..<g>.

 Matt

-Teehole

Quote: "Many games create the ultimate technological experience, but falter
when it comes to creating a compelling story to keep gamers interested".<<

Author:Tim Royal,Computer Games Strategy Plus.

Obviously there's an issue with the controllers that we all use. They don't
do a good job, particularly in as demanding environment as GPL (no feel at
all in the brake pedal) and you have to compensate for that. The biggest
issue though is that of people's expectations. People really do think that
they can jump into a Formula One car and be competitive within a couple of
days (or is that hours?). It's sad. Track driving is more different than
anyone who hasn't done it can possibly imagine. Nothing looks or feels the
way you thought it would and, from personal experience as a ***ager who
enjoyed power-sliding his parents' cars on the public roads and thought he
could step into a race car, it's chastening to find out just how slow you
really are at first. Then you start learning.

I have very fond memories of this period of racing. In 1968 I was taken to
the Grand Prix Drivers' Association showing of "Grand Prix" - which as you
might imagine made a BIG impression so I'm biased in that sense; but I spent
a lot of time at race tracks as spectator and competitor and, as much as any
game can, GPL has captured the driving experience of that era wonderfully.

Nice Monza time. You must send me your setup - I'm still in the high 28s.

John Klemantaski

And in any case, i think you'll find the people doing the pedalling at the
Festival, are certainly not amatuer's.

Retired, perhaps.

Essentially, i seem to recall that the Goodwood revival meeting held recently
was the first to use the circuit- the festival is held on a timed hill climb
course- which uses some of the facility.

Z.

You're not a relation of the famous racing photographer Klemantaski are you?
That would be too much of a coincidence:-)

I agree with your analysis of the GPL cars - although having had a go in
single seater Formula cars, in real life it's much easier to position the
car within inches of the track edge - better peripheral vision I suppose.

- Michael

l8er
ronny

          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

Cheers!
John

i prefer to refer to it as GPL-nazism.

Z.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

He's my uncle. No coincidence really; there are only three male Klemantaskis
in the world to the best of my knowledge - my father, his brother and I.
He's just published his autobiography which makes terrific reading if you're
into motor racing history - he and Peter Collins in a Ferrari at 170mph on
public roads in Italy (mid '50s Mille Miglia)! You just prayed that the
locals all remembered to keep out of the way.

As for positioning the car, I'm not sure what the problem is. It may be more
related to the quality of the steering controller and/or the lack of
feedback making it very hard to judge exactly how much lock to apply. You
can do a lot to alleviate the problem by juggling steering ratio and
steering linearity settings. I think that we can see what we need to to
place the car - which is not to say that the whole experience wouldn't be
much, much better with a wider field of vision. Perhaps lookleft/lookright
running on satellite monitors?

John Klemantaski

From your post it seems as if braking in reality was easier than in GPL?

I really dont think there are sim racers thinking they can be competitive in an
F1 after a couple of days in one :o). I do believe that there are sim racers
thinking that given the same possibilities as for example Micheal Schumacher has
had in his life, they would be competitive :o).

/Christer

Yes, I'm not very slow and I can make very consistent lap times, but I cant
brake consistently, not even close. I get no feedback to tell me when I'm at
optimum braking or have passed it or is not even close. It's even worse trying
to brake side by side with an AI, cause then I cant even hear the little tire
squealing there usually is, not knowing even if I'm way beyond the optimum
braking until one of the fronts lock up, but then it's way too late. It could be
something wrong with my Soundblaster 16, though???

It seems as if the joystick is the best controller for GPL, at least if you
listen to Wolfgang W?ger the fastest GPL driver in the world right now :o).

/Christer, the keyboard is perhaps even faster :o)?
--
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).

Mr Kaemmer uses a joystick for steering and pedals for accelerating
and braking, AFAIK. Sounds like Dean uses a setup similar to the one I
had before buying a wheel: joystick axis for steering, button one for
gas, button two for brakes. It worked quite well for me in ICR2, but I
can't see it working for GPL.

    -YUBS

P.S. Obviously you couldn't make GPL a complete arcade game, and the gamer would
have to have some sort of interest in the time period and setting since even
after turning off all the realism, GPL will never have the exaggerated physics
that arcade racers like.