LeChicken was always right 8)
--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.
He also mentioned THREE other sites in addition to VROC. Why would you only
jump on that one...?
Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
>No, it doesn't make it easy I agree, but it makes it possible. Anyone
>can keep a GPL car on the track at Talladega, even with a bad setup.
>Then they can go back to the garage, make a change, and go see what
>that change did.
>Many people never got that far with GPL, they tried driving the demo
>at the Glenn, never completed a lap on that crappy setup, gave up and
>proclaimed "GPL sucks". How can you blame them?
Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Uh? You completely misread my post. I said that the majority of racers on
VROC do not post on r.a.s. That's all, please re-read. You probably
missed that my first and second point where both in a different paragraph.
<g>
You still did not replied to anything I said over that statement, so I do
see that you have agreed with my point that GPL is been praised everywhere
in the simracing community. You can't prove the opposite, as every place
where the GPL subject could be brought (and I mentioned those places in the
previous message), it was always highly praised over everything.
--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.
They came back and said it did work in GPL, and since I do not play GPL, I
accepted it and dropped it.
> I ran GPL on one Voodoo 2 for 6 months in 1024x768, this isn't a new
> idea, and "we" sound ridiculous arguing about it.
> > Yea, we were right in our thinking. Whew, thought I was losing my
> mind
> > This is off of Toms Hardware page about the Voodoo2
> > one Pixelfx2 has now got enough performance to render in 800x600
> fast
> > enough, so that it makes sense using 4 MB frame buffer, enabling
> resolutions
> > of up to 800x600, however it will be up to the card manufacturer if
> 2 or 4
> > MB frame buffer will be used
> > you can use two Voodoo2 cards in your system, connected with a pass
> through
> > cable. These two cards can do 'SLI' = Scan Line Interleaving. This
> is
> > nothing else than that every odd line of the image is rendered by
> one, the
> > even line is rendered by the other Voodoo2 card. This about doubles
> the
> > performance and enables resolutions up to 1024x768
> > > > Never had problem on my old PC getting the resolution up to
> 1024x768
> > with
> > > my
> > > > Voodoo2 8meg. No SLI. GPL doesn't use Z-buffering, so it can
> do a
> > > > resolution higher than the maximum. No hack, simply take the
> resolution
> > > in
> > > > the GPL option screen ;)
> > > Strange, I'm pretty sure that 1024 wasn't listed as an option back
> when I
> > > had but one V2 card installed. Only when I went to SLI did I even
> have
> > the
> > > option of 1024 on that pull down resolution list. Or is this a
> change in
> > > gpl.ai or something? I think that other games had something
> similar- one
> > 12
> > > meg V2 card would only allow me to choose 800x600 max. But if
> you're sure
> > > I'll take your word for it.
> > > Thanks for the info!
The claims of realistic physics, solid AI, cutting edge graphics, and superb
control were not just exaggerated they were false. I objectively and
subjectively evaluated the game and it sucked on both levels ;-). When I
say it's junk it's based on the fact that it delivered nothing close to the
features and gameplay it claimed. I'd like to give greater details to
support my review but it was far too long ago to remember.
--
Joe Marques
> > That's my sentiments exactly. Saying the game is "not for you" is fine,
> > however, calling it a pile of junk because it's not for you is
ridiculous.
> > This game isn't for everyone, fair enough. Just don't bash it because
you
> > can't drive it.
> > --
> > Joe Marques
> > > And that's the bottom line on this whole deal. If I had the same
amount
> > of
> > > patience my son has, I would have bagged this game the 7th time I spun
> off
> > > the outer loop at the Glen in my first crack at it. I would have
> decided
> > > (like my son did) that this game isn't for me. To 3_4_me though, "not
> for
> > > me" means the same thing as "pile of junk".
To me when someone says the game is junk, I take that meaning that it is
junk by his opinion. After all, when anyone likes or dislikes a game.. it
is always just their opinion.
I honestly do not see why you are allowed to say that Test Drive 6 is junk
and he can not say that GPL is junk. Because he is in the minority? Its
still just an opinion.
I know that I will be flamed for this, but alot of times when it comes to
GPL, I agree with what David says. I have never really given GPL a chance.
I have loaded it a few times but it is just not the type of racing game that
I like to play. Just like I do not like to play motorcycle sim games ( I
like Motocross Madness, but that is more of a arcade fun type of game, not a
sim). So anyways.. I am not stuck on this GPL is "The Best!" mentality that
some people have. Now being able to look at it from a neutral view (since
I do not like it or dislike it, just never really played it) I can say that
to me it appears that anytime someone bad mouthes GPL, everyone comes out of
the woodwork to bash the poor guy. It is like all the GPL Lovers have made
it a mission to prove to everyone else that it is a great game. That they
need to "Convert" everyone into their beliefs.
Why? Let everyone play the games they like to play. Let everyone enjoy the
sims that they enjoy playing. It is not our job to dictate what games
someone can play and enjoy. I used to find myself defending Papyrus and N3
alot. Then I decided, "What do I care if others like it, as long as I enjoy
it" and now if someone bashes N3 or a game I enjoy.. who cares? Does not
stop me from playing and enjoying it. Now once in awhile I may ask them why
and see if maybe they are missing something, but if they simply do not enjoy
the game. Then so be it.
Now of course once in awhile my passions for a game will get me responding
back to someone that does not like a game that I really like, but I really
try not to. It is not my job to tell everyone what to play and enjoy.
> The claims of realistic physics, solid AI, cutting edge graphics, and
superb
> control were not just exaggerated they were false. I objectively and
> subjectively evaluated the game and it sucked on both levels ;-). When I
> say it's junk it's based on the fact that it delivered nothing close to
the
> features and gameplay it claimed. I'd like to give greater details to
> support my review but it was far too long ago to remember.
> --
> Joe Marques
> > Joe, do you think there are any games out there that are junk?
> > > That's my sentiments exactly. Saying the game is "not for you" is
fine,
> > > however, calling it a pile of junk because it's not for you is
> ridiculous.
> > > This game isn't for everyone, fair enough. Just don't bash it because
> you
> > > can't drive it.
> > > --
> > > Joe Marques
> > > > And that's the bottom line on this whole deal. If I had the same
> amount
> > > of
> > > > patience my son has, I would have bagged this game the 7th time I
spun
> > off
> > > > the outer loop at the Glen in my first crack at it. I would have
> > decided
> > > > (like my son did) that this game isn't for me. To 3_4_me though,
"not
> > for
> > > > me" means the same thing as "pile of junk".
John Nelson
> I am pretty sure that a V2 only supported up to 800x600 unless you were
> running in SLI mode. In fact it was the main reason that most people put 2
> V2s in SLI mode.
> I just think that ymenard is having a brain fade :)
> > > Never had problem on my old PC getting the resolution up to 1024x768
> with
> > my
> > > Voodoo2 8meg. No SLI. GPL doesn't use Z-buffering, so it can do a
> > > resolution higher than the maximum. No hack, simply take the resolution
> > in
> > > the GPL option screen ;)
> > Strange, I'm pretty sure that 1024 wasn't listed as an option back when I
> > had but one V2 card installed. Only when I went to SLI did I even have
> the
> > option of 1024 on that pull down resolution list. Or is this a change in
> > gpl.ai or something? I think that other games had something similar- one
> 12
> > meg V2 card would only allow me to choose 800x600 max. But if you're sure
> > I'll take your word for it.
> > Thanks for the info!
Yes Cliff, saying a game is junk is obviously an opinion, that's not my
point. Disliking a game is one thing but saying it's a "pile of junk" is a
different story. There are many games I dislike but not ALL of those are a
"pile of junk." I am not so insecure that I must call all games I don't
like "junk." If I play a game for an hour, don't really get into it, decide
it's not for me, and never play it again then that's fine I just "don't like
it." Should I then say it's a "pile of junk" based on my cursory
experience? Shouldn't "pile of junk" status be reserved for games that I
not only "dislike" but that I find worthless? I'm sure there are some
jewels out there that just weren't for me (Rogue Spear to name one) but I'd
be a fool to call them worthless. I save "pile of junk" status for just
that: worthless crap.
Saying a game "isn't for you" and that you "don't like it" is indisputable
and should not be debated, however, taking your critique to the next level
and saying it's a "pile of junk" is a serious claim that the game lacks
PLAYABILITY and this is certainly debatable. If you chose to make such a
claim I for one want some details/facts. Example: TD6 is poorly coded
because it ran horribly choppy on my PII450/V3 (state-of-the-art at the
time). Other games with FAR cleaner and more varied graphics ran MUCH
faster. I could measure FPS in TD6 and compare it to Viper Racing. One
could objectively conclude that TD6 was poorly coded bc of it's inability to
run as smoothly on a state-of-the art system as Viper Racing. For this, and
many other reasons I concluded that TD6 was junk. While one can always
disagree with me, my rationale is solid and my information highly credible
so my conclusion that TD6 is junk is not likely to be considered baseless or
far fetched. It should also provide useful guidance to a potential buyer:
"Beware of significant choppiness on a state-of-the art system." This is
objectively considered a serious flaw for a driving game. This coupled with
other flaws can easily earn the status: pile of junk.
I am not "allowed" to say TD6 is junk. All I argue is that IF I say TD6 is
junk I should back it up. I think GPL is NOT junk because GPL delivers what
it claims and has no serious flaws. TD6 is junk because it does not deliver
by any standards and has serious flaws. I won't take the 500+ words to
expand on this comparison now but I can if you'd like. I give DETAILS as to
why something is junk and support it with facts/observations.
Why post "GPL is junk" and not support the claim with anything? I really
could care less if anyone else on the planet plays the games I like (other
than the obvious fear of lack of sales issues effecting the genre I enjoy).
If you don't like the game I'd hope you'd tell me why so I can understand
your point of view. Not necessary but it would be nice. If you conclude
that not only do you dislike the game but you believe it fails to deliver
quality gameplay on so may levels that it is a "pile of junk" then back it
up. It's not his opinion that annoys me. It's going beyond " I don't like
it" and into "pile of junk" territory without any details to support this
strong criticism that annoys me.
Nor is it my job to dictate what games should be played. I do believe,
however, that people come here for opinions on games they are considering
purchasing. I also believe I should provide support to games I believe are
well designed and fun to play. Especially when someone calls such a game a
"pile of junk" and doesn't say why. My posts are intended for those who may
be influenced by this harsh review and not buy what I consider a great game.
I worry that some poor sap may steer clear of GPL because one person who
probably didn't really play it much feels compelled to not just say he
doesn't like it but that it is also a pile of junk. I think it's far from
junk and I certainly won't allow an unsupported conclusion to reside on this
ng without comment. I'm not saying my opinion is right. I'm only saying
that if you call a game junk then back it up. I'll be happy to debate you
and let any prospective buyer decide who they find more logical, reasonable
and compelling. This is certainly better than a buying decision being made
on the statement "GPL is a pile of junk."
---
Joe Marques
> > The claims of realistic physics, solid AI, cutting edge graphics, and
> superb
> > control were not just exaggerated they were false. I objectively and
> > subjectively evaluated the game and it sucked on both levels ;-). When
I
> > say it's junk it's based on the fact that it delivered nothing close to
> the
> > features and gameplay it claimed. I'd like to give greater details to
> > support my review but it was far too long ago to remember.
> > --
> > Joe Marques
> > > Joe, do you think there are any games out there that are junk?
> > > > That's my sentiments exactly. Saying the game is "not for you" is
> fine,
> > > > however, calling it a pile of junk because it's not for you is
> > ridiculous.
> > > > This game isn't for everyone, fair enough. Just don't bash it
because
> > you
> > > > can't drive it.
> > > > --
> > > > Joe Marques
> > > > > And that's the bottom line on this whole deal. If I had the same
> > amount
> > > > of
> > > > > patience my son has, I would have bagged this game the 7th time I
> spun
> > > off
> > > > > the outer loop at the Glen in my first crack at it. I would have
> > > decided
> > > > > (like my son did) that this game isn't for me. To 3_4_me though,
> "not
> > > for
> > > > > me" means the same thing as "pile of junk".
But I was the one arguing? Scott Sanford, the one who first raised the
issue in this thread, is a playtester at Papyrus (or at least was, on
the GPL project). So, regardless of if it offends you, it really does
look ridiculous for someone that doesn't even play the game to try to
correct him when he points something out.
> They came back and said it did work in GPL, and since I do not play
GPL, I
> accepted it and dropped it.
> > No, "we" weren't right. Ymenard and Scott Sanford were right.
> > I ran GPL on one Voodoo 2 for 6 months in 1024x768, this isn't a
new
> > idea, and "we" sound ridiculous arguing about it.
> > > Yea, we were right in our thinking. Whew, thought I was losing
my
> > mind
> > > This is off of Toms Hardware page about the Voodoo2
> > > one Pixelfx2 has now got enough performance to render in 800x600
> > fast
> > > enough, so that it makes sense using 4 MB frame buffer, enabling
> > resolutions
> > > of up to 800x600, however it will be up to the card manufacturer
if
> > 2 or 4
> > > MB frame buffer will be used
> > > you can use two Voodoo2 cards in your system, connected with a
pass
> > through
> > > cable. These two cards can do 'SLI' = Scan Line Interleaving.
This
> > is
> > > nothing else than that every odd line of the image is rendered
by
> > one, the
> > > even line is rendered by the other Voodoo2 card. This about
doubles
> > the
> > > performance and enables resolutions up to 1024x768
> > > > > Never had problem on my old PC getting the resolution up to
> > 1024x768
> > > with
> > > > my
> > > > > Voodoo2 8meg. No SLI. GPL doesn't use Z-buffering, so it
can
> > do a
> > > > > resolution higher than the maximum. No hack, simply take
the
> > resolution
> > > > in
> > > > > the GPL option screen ;)
> > > > Strange, I'm pretty sure that 1024 wasn't listed as an option
back
> > when I
> > > > had but one V2 card installed. Only when I went to SLI did I
even
> > have
> > > the
> > > > option of 1024 on that pull down resolution list. Or is this
a
> > change in
> > > > gpl.ai or something? I think that other games had something
> > similar- one
> > > 12
> > > > meg V2 card would only allow me to choose 800x600 max. But if
> > you're sure
> > > > I'll take your word for it.
> > > > Thanks for the info!
One word: SODA. While I love GPL, I must admit I've been having a hell
of a time lately with SODA, which I dug out from my "archives". People
overlooked this gem because: (1) the graphics card support sucked
[sound familiar?] and (2) until GPL came along, we weren't ready for
such a wild driving experience. The first time I tried SODA it seemed
uncontrollable. On the shelf it went, until I played GPL for a long
time, and also moved up to a computer than could give me a high frame
rate in SODA. With the high frame rate, and improvements in my driving
technique, SODA is a whole new ballgame, and in some ways way more fun
than GPL. I haven't even started to dabble with the high-power
monsters yet.
We all say that Kaemmer is a God, but I think we should give the small
group at Software Allies (who developed the game for Papyrus) some
credit as minor deities for building a fairly sophisticated multi-DOF
physics model, and getting it out the door a year before GPL.
Stephen
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
I havn't tried more than 800x600 though.
Chris
In article <C02P4.933
>I am pretty sure that a V2 only supported up to 800x600 unless
you were
>running in SLI mode. In fact it was the main reason that most
people put 2
>V2s in SLI mode.
>I just think that ymenard is having a brain fade :)
>> > Never had problem on my old PC getting the resolution up to
1024x768
>with
>> my
>> > Voodoo2 8meg. No SLI. GPL doesn't use Z-buffering, so it
can do a
>> > resolution higher than the maximum. No hack, simply take
the resolution
>> in
>> > the GPL option screen ;)
Andre
Andre
>John Nelson
>> I thought that same thing as you.
>> I am pretty sure that a V2 only supported up to 800x600 unless you were
>> running in SLI mode. In fact it was the main reason that most people put 2
>> V2s in SLI mode.
>> I just think that ymenard is having a brain fade :)
>> > > Never had problem on my old PC getting the resolution up to 1024x768
>> with
>> > my
>> > > Voodoo2 8meg. No SLI. GPL doesn't use Z-buffering, so it can do a
>> > > resolution higher than the maximum. No hack, simply take the resolution
>> > in
>> > > the GPL option screen ;)
>> > Strange, I'm pretty sure that 1024 wasn't listed as an option back when I
>> > had but one V2 card installed. Only when I went to SLI did I even have
>> the
>> > option of 1024 on that pull down resolution list. Or is this a change in
>> > gpl.ai or something? I think that other games had something similar- one
>> 12
>> > meg V2 card would only allow me to choose 800x600 max. But if you're sure
>> > I'll take your word for it.
>> > Thanks for the info!
No, the "real" bit was me taking the piss, that's why I put it in quotes.
I'm sorry you missed that.
Show me another simulation that is calculated at the same or higher
frequency, simulates the player car as actual interacting components and has
true 3D tracks and similarly advanced AI. My "opinion" indeed.
No my friend, not good enough. I don't want to hear about 99.9% of the games
buying public. I know who they are. I'm surrounded by them. They think I'm
weird for playing racing simulators, I think they're weird for playing RPG's
and turn based strategy games. A (somewhat uncomfortable) status quo; -to
each his own, live and let live, etc....
I want to know about the 99% of simracers. You've been avoiding this
question. I have asked you, Francois (ymenard) has asked you and now I'm
asking you again: show me this 99% of simracers which shun GPL. -What do
they race instead? -Where do they meet and what do they talk about?
"Most folks", maybe. Simracers, IMO, appreciate the challenge on offer and
would drive a game featuring Goraud shaded polygons if it had the GPL
engine. A10 Cuba and the original Su-27 Flanker games sold ok to their
target market on the strenght of their flight model, not the eye candy.
GPL was released before the TNT and GeForce chipsets, so it can hardly be
expected to function with newer cards which do not support the API's it was
written for. If some 3D FPS fan (are there any other games which actually
benifit from these cards?) wants to check out GPL then tough luck: he either
digs out a V2 or plays in software mode AFAIC.
Jan.
=---
