rec.autos.simulators

RT Timing Sync Bug!

Jan Verschuere

RT Timing Sync Bug!

by Jan Verschuere » Sun, 11 Nov 2001 07:49:06

Slight exaggeration on my part.

IIRC you were going to join Eldreds Rouen GP, in reponse to a challenge by
Thom (was it?). As I was intending to run this race anyway, I thought I'd
play the "talent vs practise" angle to try and unsettle you and hence
increase my chances of coming out on top.

In the end I guess you couldn't make the event and I perhaps psyched myself
up too much, as, in a rare bout of lap 1 aggression, I tangled with Roger
Squires which seriously compromised my consistency for the rest of the race.

Jan.
=---
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

Jan Verschuere

RT Timing Sync Bug!

by Jan Verschuere » Sun, 11 Nov 2001 08:44:19

Thanks for this gem of a reply Malcolm. More than I bargained for and it
does open up a whole can of worms/questions for me, but I need to organize
my thoughts before I can present them as something you might be able to work
with. I'll get back to you.

This is the 2nd time in my simracing "career" I've been blindsided by the
comments of a better/more complete simracer from whom I sought advice. Last
time I had to re-assess my motivation and priorities to be able to continue,
this time I'm forced to question the way I "drive" (and I don't mean the
techniques I use, but really fundamentally). Anyone smart/humble enough to
re-evaluate his/her driving in the face of what you posted will benefit
greatly, IMO.

Thanks again,

Jan.
=---
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

David G Fishe

RT Timing Sync Bug!

by David G Fishe » Sun, 11 Nov 2001 10:47:07


No, I just thought I'd be a little sarcastic that day.

You'd destroy me. No need to try and unsettle me. I have about 40 hours of
total time in GPL (almost every bit of it was with the demo and in the first
year after it was released).

race.

You crashed because your nothing but a stinkin' hotlapper. :-p

David G Fisher

Eldre

RT Timing Sync Bug!

by Eldre » Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:53:50



>I don't think a comparison with something else is really necessary but if I
>have to come up with one....

I asked you for a comparison because I didn't agree with the way you stated it.
 I was trying to find your reasoning for your comments.

Songs have a finite amount of notes, chords, and words.  There's only a certain
'level' to get to, and no one can go higher.  You CAN get a song perfect, and
there's nowhere else to go.  With any sim, there's always someone better,
always more to improve.
Well, I still don't agree with you, but it's a free country...

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Gary Simpso

RT Timing Sync Bug!

by Gary Simpso » Sun, 11 Nov 2001 13:03:05

Considering that GPL has 11 tracks (originally) that would mean at least a
full album in musical terms (to use your comparison, David) so, what you
maybe should have said is that practicing GPL for three years is the same as
practising the same ALBUM  for three years, not one song, but eleven - a
little less ridiculous maybe?
     However, given the fact that there are around 130+ tracks available for
GPL, that would translate into hmmmmm, let's see... at least 11 albums?. Now
then, how many groups have produced 11 cd's worth of music in the last 3
years?
     I would say that any band who churned out music on that scale was an
exception talent indeed, especially if said music was of top quality and
people appreciated and enjoyed it in the same way that most sim racers do
with GPL.

     What do you do with music: listen to it in your spare time as a means
of relaxation?

     What do most sim-racers do with GPL: play the game in their spare time
as a means of relaxation maybe?

     Yeah, simply ridiculous... rotf

Gary



ymenar

RT Timing Sync Bug!

by ymenar » Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:30:23


> I don't think a comparison with something else is really necessary but if
I
> have to come up with one....

Comparison is the tool of the naive.  You can put about everything to
compare and find a vague relation to the compared.

It's just bares no relation, music is art, racing is a sport.  Especially
since most classical musicians DO practice the same pieces for years, and
become closer to perfection each time.

Some people race in real-life on the same track on Friday nights for
decades.  Are they inferior to "Thou DGF worshipped self-God" ?  I don't
think so.  Can they judge their talents? You sure bet, they are racing for
Christ's sake.  Yet in GPL people can race new tracks each week or so,
there's hundreds of them on the web.  Each gives the passionate racer the
chance to master the tracks, and have the pleasure of racing, pushing the
car to it's limit. (I now lower myself to your standards and give you an
invented comparison that makes as much non-sense as yours) :

Sim racing = DGF's trolling

Practicing GPL for 3 years = DGF practicing the same trolling routines for
three years.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Tony Rickar

RT Timing Sync Bug!

by Tony Rickar » Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:42:38

I think sim racing is closer to Eldred's analogy then David's one of music.

It is more like a sport albeit not one that requires physical attributes per
se.

So suggesting someone is crazy to play snooker for 20 years would be pretty
close.

When I was younger I played snooker in a local league. One of my team
members wasn't very good even at our low level. He was in his fifties and
had played for most of his life. When he got a reasonable break (similar to
breaking 1:30 at Monza!) we all cheered and he was overjoyed. It was a
personal achievement that had taking him close to a lifetime. His
achievement was way short of what I had done, which in turn was woefully
short of an up & coming 8 year old.

So should we be sending this fifty year old off to a psychiatrist ward for
thinking he had achieved something, or congratulating him on his moment of
triumph?

Tony

"David G Fisher"  wrote

> I don't think a comparison with something else is really necessary but if
I
> have to come up with one....

> Sim racing = music.

> Practicing GPL for three years = practicing the same song for three years.

> You can improve in sim racing and in music over many years, but to
practice
> the same song or the same sim for that long, and then judge your talent or
> progress on the results seems ridiculous to me.

> David G Fisher




> Fisher"

> > >I think any *** who plays the same game for as long as Alex and then
> > >thinks he's actually accomplished something needs to be studied by a
team
> of
> > >psychiatrists at a major European clinic.

> > Why, David?  Do you use the same reasoning for sports?  I don't remember
> if
> > I've asked you this before.  If someone has been bowling for 10 years,
and
> > finally rolls a 300, does that make his accomplishment any less worthy?
> Why
> > does it matter the time frame it took?  And, if you expect success at
> > *anything* to come easy, then why even bother?  If you do something good
> in
> > your chosen field/sport/hobby quickly then it isn't much of a challenge.
> If
> > you can't do it quickly, would you classify yourself as a failure?

> > Eldred

Tony Rickar

RT Timing Sync Bug!

by Tony Rickar » Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:44:37

LOL :)

David G Fishe

RT Timing Sync Bug!

by David G Fishe » Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:47:01

Do you know why I made the "psychiatrist" comment?

David G Fisher


> I think sim racing is closer to Eldred's analogy then David's one of
music.

> It is more like a sport albeit not one that requires physical attributes
per
> se.

> So suggesting someone is crazy to play snooker for 20 years would be
pretty
> close.

> When I was younger I played snooker in a local league. One of my team
> members wasn't very good even at our low level. He was in his fifties and
> had played for most of his life. When he got a reasonable break (similar
to
> breaking 1:30 at Monza!) we all cheered and he was overjoyed. It was a
> personal achievement that had taking him close to a lifetime. His
> achievement was way short of what I had done, which in turn was woefully
> short of an up & coming 8 year old.

> So should we be sending this fifty year old off to a psychiatrist ward for
> thinking he had achieved something, or congratulating him on his moment of
> triumph?

> Tony

> "David G Fisher"  wrote

> > I don't think a comparison with something else is really necessary but
if
> I
> > have to come up with one....

> > Sim racing = music.

> > Practicing GPL for three years = practicing the same song for three
years.

> > You can improve in sim racing and in music over many years, but to
> practice
> > the same song or the same sim for that long, and then judge your talent
or
> > progress on the results seems ridiculous to me.

> > David G Fisher




G
> > Fisher"

> > > >I think any *** who plays the same game for as long as Alex and
then
> > > >thinks he's actually accomplished something needs to be studied by a
> team
> > of
> > > >psychiatrists at a major European clinic.

> > > Why, David?  Do you use the same reasoning for sports?  I don't
remember
> > if
> > > I've asked you this before.  If someone has been bowling for 10 years,
> and
> > > finally rolls a 300, does that make his accomplishment any less
worthy?
> > Why
> > > does it matter the time frame it took?  And, if you expect success at
> > > *anything* to come easy, then why even bother?  If you do something
good
> > in
> > > your chosen field/sport/hobby quickly then it isn't much of a
challenge.
> > If
> > > you can't do it quickly, would you classify yourself as a failure?

> > > Eldred

Jens H. Kruus

RT Timing Sync Bug!

by Jens H. Kruus » Sun, 11 Nov 2001 19:49:36



Hehe, nice one. I wouldn't call him that, though! More of a lukewarmlapper.
:-)

/Jens

Maxx

RT Timing Sync Bug!

by Maxx » Sun, 11 Nov 2001 20:49:07

On Sat, 10 Nov 2001 00:44:19 +0100, "Jan Verschueren"


>Thanks for this gem of a reply Malcolm. More than I bargained for and it
>does open up a whole can of worms/questions for me, but I need to organize
>my thoughts before I can present them as something you might be able to work
>with. I'll get back to you.

>This is the 2nd time in my simracing "career" I've been blindsided by the
>comments of a better/more complete simracer from whom I sought advice. Last
>time I had to re-assess my motivation and priorities to be able to continue,
>this time I'm forced to question the way I "drive" (and I don't mean the
>techniques I use, but really fundamentally). Anyone smart/humble enough to
>re-evaluate his/her driving in the face of what you posted will benefit
>greatly, IMO.

Jan,

Very nice of you to say so, it's not just the premise of the "less
complete" [in your words] sim-driver who needs to step back
occasionally and re-asses. I certainly do it from time to time,
and many of the top real-world drivers that I know or have
read about do this also.

It actually fits in with the other sub-thread going on here
about practice.

MUSIC

When you practice a song, you will be be following a script in
your mind, while you are playing one chord you are thinking
about the next, or a tricky change-over up ahead.

Whilst you are singing the words you are visualising the line
in your mind and already "thinking" about the next word and
so on.

Yes, you can still do this on stage and perform a fair rendition
of the song, but it will probably lack feeling and IMO you won't
enjoy the experience as much.

SPORT

Lets take football and tennis, how often do you suspect, not
just the great footballers but also the Sunday afernoon club
footballers run through technique related issue in the course
of a game, or any tennis player.

If you are recieving a service do you "think", ah ok, this
ones going wide and long, I need to move to here and
perform this shot. I need to place it straight back on the
diagonal as I can see out of the corner of my eye that
my opponent is moving across court to block a straight
return.

That process does happen and dozens of other scanarios
as well but in the sub-conscious.

In order to perform those moves the player needs lots
of (technique) practice, in order to decide (subconsciously)
the best move in those circumstances requires that he has
had lots of prior experience and has put thought into
matcgplay tactics (conscious thought which is stored in
his sub-conscious for lightning fast retrieval).

Motor Racing is no different apart from perhaps its
breadth. Learn F.Ford well and have some degree of
talent and you should do well, then you have to relearn
a lot of driving and race technique for the aero cars
like F3, F3000 is a different challenge as the cars behave
very differently, then maybe F1, different again although
you have more to call on at this stage.

Then there are Saloons, Stock Cars, Hot-Rods, Grass Track
cars, Hillclimbs, Trials, Rallying, Truck Racing etc. etc. etc.

Going back to music briefly, I have often compared a GPL
race to a musical performance, or a real race for that matter.

I was for many years in my youth a performing musician so I
have experience of both sides. I particularly remember the
difference in mindset between a practice session and a
performance. For some reason it comes very natural to
think this way with music and other sports but from what Jan
has said and others I have spoken to, it seems we don't make
the same connection with GPL racing and often approach
racing in the same mindset as offline practising.

It still works but IMO not as well and is not so rewarding.

Another thing strikes me and I wondeer if any of the
rally sim drivers have a similar experience.

I find I drive a rally sim in 2 different ways, the actually
thing I'm doing is the same, either a single stage or
full rally and my motivation is exactly the same (to go
as fast as possible). I never have a mindset of
practicing technique.

Sometimes I will be looking ahead at each corner, the
apex, the outside verge and listening to the co-driver calls
intently. I am gripping the wheel qute tight and I can feel
tension in my shoulders.

I can put up a decent time BUT other times I'll sit, very
relaxed, almost zombie like. I won't make any real attempt to
interpret the co-driver calls (i.e if he says 200, 3 left I won't
THINK I need to this, then that. It will simply register and I'll
do what's required when it's required.

I won't consciously look at any apex of any verge. instead
I am sort of leaving my eyes wide open to take in the scene
and (I know this sounds kooky) just let this go straight
through to my sub-conscious without passing through and
being evaluated by my conscious.

I particularly like stages with lots going on (France etc.
in CMR2, Corsica/Monte Carlo in CMR1) as these just
force that process to happen for me.

If you've ever watched in-car action from the WRC you
will know what mean. The drivers seem incredibly
relaxed and have a fixed gaze rather than darty eyes.

There is no way that any of them are THINKING at
all about what they are physically doing, or about what
technique to use for the next bend, or even registering
what the next bend is.

It's why Makkinen had so much trouble getting to grips
with a new co-driver in Australia.

Anyway, more food for thought and probably kooky
enough to put anyone off replying :)

Cheers

Maxx

Jan Verschuere

RT Timing Sync Bug!

by Jan Verschuere » Mon, 12 Nov 2001 03:30:47

LOL... touche!

Jan./December 26th, wiseguy! ;-)
=---
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

ymenar

RT Timing Sync Bug!

by ymenar » Mon, 12 Nov 2001 07:33:21


> Do you know why I made the "psychiatrist" comment?

It must be a bore to live in your world where you can't have a passion, or
any desire to achieve goals.  For you, it's a mental problem to the social
life of that person, while failing to realise that each and every soul on
the planet must be mentally ill because they all have a passion (except you,
it seems).  You have absolutely no enthusiasm.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Ian

RT Timing Sync Bug!

by Ian » Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:00:01

He seems pretty enthusiastic about giving GPLers a hard time. Pretty sad
really.

--

Ian P
<email invalid due to spam>

ymenard wrote


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