the quality of the drivers in them I was glad the number was somewhat
limited :-)
Achim
...
Achim
...
Tha fact GPL was historic F1 is almost irrelevent. I grew to like the '67 era
because of GPL not the other way around. It could have been pretty much any
series that involved braking, varying corners etc. etc.
If "MS Drive Simulator" ever existed what better than the N2003 engine used for
whatever car racing series you care to start with. Then add expansion pack after
expansion pack. Papy developing a configurable engine for an enlarged team of
graphic artists, programmers sound enginereers etc. The engine could be further
developed with each expansion pack, adding new features which work
retrospectively with the other packs.
Quality physics, graphics, sound plus proven multiplayer from day 1 along with a
reasonably developed AI for single player. From that build just about anything -
CART, touring cars, rally, formula ford, transam, Aussie V8s (of course!) cops &
robbers, learn to drive school whatever.
Who knows - but I wouldn't dismiss it as the death of race sims.
Cheers
Tony
To be honest Joachim, I'd bet my right arm that if you took a random sample
of GPL drivers and had them compete against a random sample of 4x4 Evo2
drivers (follow up to MTM2) in a new, third sim with a controlled amount of
practice time, the 4x4 Evo2 drivers would put the GPL drivers to shame. You
could just take the top 20% of both and the results would be the same.
Having competed against both, that's my opinion.
David G Fisher
> Achim
> ...
> > Here you had this huge online enviroment, the msn *** zone(or
whatever
> > they call it..been so long I have forgotten the exact name.) and they
> > limit the races to 4 or 6 racers. MAN! Could you imagine what a rush a
> > good supercross sim would be at the start? approximentally 30 riders
all
> > charging for the same spot? Mayhem, drama...RACING...
You raise the all important question there, Goy. Microsoft wouldn't be
specifically acquiring Papyrus, but rather getting them in a package deal
that includes the likes of Blizzard, Sierra and Vivendi Universal
Interactive. Papyrus would be a *very* small part of the deal. So, the
question is, just how much importance would MS place on Papyrus remaining in
the Hard Core PC Driving Sim genre? That's a very difficult thing to tell
right now. But, as has been pointed out, there is one good sign in that MS
has supported niche products for the more hard core segments of the ***
communities.
It appears that under Vivendi, Papyrus is not going to be able to remain
focused on what it has done better than anyone else for a long time now. So
from my point of view, conditions could not be much worse under MS in the
future than under Vivendi right now. At the very least, product decisions
wouldn't be impacted by the financial woes of the parent corporation. I
would also rather Papyrus be owned by a software company than a utility
company. Is there another company that would be better suited to own
Papyrus? EA? Sony? Maybe, but I'm not so sure.
I guess whoever ends up with Papyrus, we all just have to hope that they see
the importance of what Papyrus does in the game industry and has the
financial ability and desire to allow them the freedom to continue and maybe
even expand on their product line.
db
It seems everyone is still assuming Papyrus will make another '***'
sim. All their interviews and all the hints point NOT to another modern F1
title, NOT a CART revival, NOT anything to do with a standalone sim. I
think we need to get that out of our heads for the time being. Something
like Grand Theft Auto or Driver...a story game with driving elements might
be closer to what they will attempt. Time will tell cuz Papy never does
:)
dave henrie
As for your little bet, I don't know who'd be faster, and honestly, it
doesn't matter to me.
Achim
> There were different levels of drivers. The good and best MTM2 drivers were
> fantastic. No different than there are different levels of drivers in GPL.
> GPL races tend to be crash fests at the best of times, by drivers with years
> of experience on the smae tracks, somthing that somehow conveniently gets
> forgotten by many.
But by your own admission you got bored of GPL after six short weeks,
then installed because you weren't interested! Are you basing your
appraisal of the quality of GPL drivers on six weeks?!
I have a point, Dave, so there's not a chance in hell that you'll answer
me!
Yeah, I won't be surprised no matter what their next project ends up being.
Obviously, I *hope* it will be another driving simulation game based on
their current physics engine. But the term "multi-platform" isn't exactly
inspiring a lot of confidence in me, heheh. Yeah, I know that it doesn't
specifically exclude a PC developed racing sim, but it doesn't specifically
include one either. I just hope that their next PC game won't be a console
to PC port of a GTA clone or something. Not that GTA isn't a good game or
shoot'em-ups aren't an entertaining genre, but it is not what Papyrus has
done better than everyone else in the world for the last several years.
db
FS was made by Sublogic (Bruce Artwick), and was only later bought by
MS, when it was already a huge sim success.
(I still have an original tape for FS1 for Tandy's TRS-80, that's how
old this one is..)
You will, just wait and see. MS is in it for the money, not the
customers, as always; as a company it has never been 'product-oriented'
or 'excellence-oriented', always marketing-oriented.
In fact, it's just about the exact opposite of the attitude that made
Papy create GPL.
Regards, Ruud
Don't count on Papy having any kind of say about things after being
governed by Microsoft. This is the kind of company that eats you up and
spits you out afterwards.
Bruce Artwick sold them Flight Sim and ended up fighting 'em in a
lawsuit afterwards.
Halo, originally meant as a Mac game by Bungie, still isn't out on the
Mac. Not what the original authors intended at all.
People have been complaining for yonks about what Sierra and EA could
have done for racing games and then some expect better from, of all
things, *Microsoft*? Sheesh... fat chance, I'd say.
Regards, Ruud
MS *is* about making money and basically nothing else (well, beside
world domination, of course).
If such a buyout creates a decent racing sim, well, that'll be fine with
them.
If that creates the biggest load of cr*p and Papy does nothing but turn
out mediocre arcade games from then on, that's fine with them too :
- - as long as it makes them carloads of money.
MS is not in it for excellence in *** (or in anything, for that
matter). MS is, and will always be, in it for the ca$h and the
privileges it provides.
Regards, Ruud
"Dodge this." - Tux
Yup, I still have the boxes/5.25" floppies for the Apple ][ versions
of Flight Simulator and Jet. Jet was probably my favorite game ever
until I became a ***ager.
Jason
> > Does the name MS Flight Simulator mean anything to you, or MS Train
> > Simulator ?
> Dunno about the latter - (can't imagine more more simulation than
> forward motion on that one), but Flight Simulator is another MS title
> that is not originally from MS at all.
> FS was made by Sublogic (Bruce Artwick), and was only later bought by
> MS, when it was already a huge sim success.
Excuse me, but anyone who runs a company expects to make money and get a
return on their investment, the guys at Papy may be sim racing
enthusiasts but Papyrus is still a company that is expected to make
money, if it's on the market it means they haven't been making enough
money for their owners to consider it worthwhile to hold onto, or they
have a cash flow problem and need to sell
MS doesn't have a cash flow problem, and if they were to take it over
due to a genuine interest in making racing sims, Papyrus would most
likely get a substantial budget, enough for one serious attempt, maybe
two, at making a product that is financially sound
We can only speculate as to what that sim would look like, but if
there's a genuine interest in Papy as a company and not as part of a
package, then I would expect it to be a sim that looks something like
the MS FS, they don't need Papy to make Midtown Madness 3 or whatever
If I was into flight sims I could go and buy MS FS or FS PRO right now,
if I think it's a cool product there's at least 15-20 add on packs with
sceneries and planes I could add to it, how many add on packs can you
buy for GPL, or Nascarxxxx even ?
FS is a commercial success and MS keeps supporting it and it keeps
evolving, if it wasn't for the GPL enthusiasts around the world and a
couple of guys at Papy who wanted to play GPL on their new vid cards,
you wouldn't have been playing GPL today at all
Papyrus is a company, a company is supposed to make money for it's
owners, if it wasn't it would be a non profit organization, they need
someone to fund their projects and these people expect a return on their
money, it doesn't matter if it's Sierra, EA or MS
Bill has a shitload of money, if wants to risk some of them by getting
into the race sim market with Papy, he gets my vote, at least it'll be
based on a financially sound model and he won't have to bail at the
first sign of trouble as he has enough money to make a couple of
adjustments along the way
No, he won't wait forever, at some point in the not too distant future
Papy would have to start earning money, unless they have some hidden
cash reserves they need to make money from Day 1, how long is it since
the last couple of people was axed at Papy ?
Someone wasn't happy with the return on their money and people had to
leave
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--
> Well, I'd say you reasonably summed these two up... And both statements
> are, I'm afraid, contradictory where MS is concerned.
> MS *is* about making money and basically nothing else (well, beside
> world domination, of course).
> If such a buyout creates a decent racing sim, well, that'll be fine with
> them.
> If that creates the biggest load of cr*p and Papy does nothing but turn
> out mediocre arcade games from then on, that's fine with them too :
> - - as long as it makes them carloads of money.
> MS is not in it for excellence in *** (or in anything, for that
> matter). MS is, and will always be, in it for the ca$h and the
> privileges it provides.
Geoff Crammond on the other hand, he's known all over the world for his
F1 sims, if I wanted a "name" I'd let Papy sink and sign Geoff, he
wouldn't even need to do any work, I'd just buy the rights to his name,
"MS presents Geoff Crammond's GP simulator"
Money makes the world go round whether you like it or not and a sim
racing company has to make money just like every other company, unless
of course Bernie E, Ron D or Frank W gets in a philanthropic mood and
decides to fund the ultimate F1 sim out of the kindness of their hearts,
however, even in that case all we'd get is yet another modern F1 sim
I don't like it, but that's how it works
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--