rec.autos.simulators

by **Scott Sanfor** » Sat, 30 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Thats not a bug! Watch some old NASCAR tapes from Riverside and you will
see that they spent more time in the dirt than they did on the asphalt,
especially in the esses and turn 6, and if you want to be fast at Riverside
you better master cutting the corner at 6 because there is a lot of time to
be made there.

Scott Sanford
Papyrus

by **Scott Sanfor** » Sat, 30 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Still it is not a bug since it is something we did on purpose. We had 4
different tapes of races at Riverside and all of them show cars going off
the track lap after lap at certian points on the track so we decided to
model the AI that way.

Scott Sanford
Papyrus

> Yes it is a bug.
> I grew up in So. Calif. and saw plenty of races, including NASCAR, at
> Riverside. I also raced with the SCCA there many times. Yes the Stock Car
> guys used the dirt sometimes, but not like the AI in NL. Two inside wheels
> off the pavement (before the dragons teeth were put in) was common, but
not
> all four wheels every lap.

> >Thats not a bug! Watch some old NASCAR tapes from Riverside and you will
> >see that they spent more time in the dirt than they did on the asphalt,
> >especially in the esses and turn 6, and if you want to be fast at
Riverside
> >you better master cutting the corner at 6 because there is a lot of time
to
> >be made there.

> >Scott Sanford
> >Papyrus

> >> Found an AI bug at Riverside Turn Six. The AI is going all the way over
> to
> >> the fences on both the left going in, and the right at the apex as the
> >> track. This is about 30 ft into the dirt on both sides! This happens
with
> >> every car on every lap regardles of traffic. Looks like Papy got the
way
> >> points wrong. Hope they fix this soon - the only reason I bought this
was
> >> for Riverside!

by **Scott Sanfor** » Sat, 30 Oct 1999 04:00:00

And people wonder why no one from Papy ever posts here. I really have no
desire to argue this with you, I told you what we did and why we did it and
instead of just saying I was there and that is not what I saw I get all of
this. I am glad that you think the track model is good, we spent a lot of
time with very little info. to get this track right even though no one
working on the project had ever been to the track. BTW, 1970 was the first
year that NASCAR ever ran slicks and that was only at Talladega.

Scott Sanford
Papyrus

by **Douglas Sharp** » Sun, 31 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Found an AI bug at Riverside Turn Six. The AI is going all the way over to
the fences on both the left going in, and the right at the apex as the
track. This is about 30 ft into the dirt on both sides! This happens with
every car on every lap regardles of traffic. Looks like Papy got the way
points wrong. Hope they fix this soon - the only reason I bought this was
for Riverside!

by **Tracey A Mille** » Sun, 31 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Thanks for posting this, the only reason I was going to buy NL was for
Riverside, so now I have an excuse to keep my money.

Douglas Sharpe wrote

by **Douglas Sharp** » Sun, 31 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Yes it is a bug.
I grew up in So. Calif. and saw plenty of races, including NASCAR, at
Riverside. I also raced with the SCCA there many times. Yes the Stock Car
guys used the dirt sometimes, but not like the AI in NL. Two inside wheels
off the pavement (before the dragons teeth were put in) was common, but not
all four wheels every lap.

>Thats not a bug! Watch some old NASCAR tapes from Riverside and you will
>see that they spent more time in the dirt than they did on the asphalt,
>especially in the esses and turn 6, and if you want to be fast at Riverside
>you better master cutting the corner at 6 because there is a lot of time to
>be made there.

>Scott Sanford
>Papyrus

>> Found an AI bug at Riverside Turn Six. The AI is going all the way over
to
>> the fences on both the left going in, and the right at the apex as the
>> track. This is about 30 ft into the dirt on both sides! This happens with
>> every car on every lap regardles of traffic. Looks like Papy got the way
>> points wrong. Hope they fix this soon - the only reason I bought this was
>> for Riverside!

by **Douglas Sharp** » Sun, 31 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Your "facts" are wrong then. Even the stock cars didn't apex turn six at the
inside fence every lap. That's something like THIRTY FEET off the pavement!
Yes they did go "off road" to pass sometimes, but staying on the asphalt
when your car has slicks is much faster than turning in the dirt. In other
places on the track, the esses for instance, your modeling is very good, but
turn six is all wrong.

You say you had four videos - well I watched, in person, a lot of races from
all over the track and saw a lot more laps than you did. I can attest that
your line was NOT Dan Gurney's line, and he was the master of Riverside.
Also as a driver - if I had tried your line I would have been black flagged
for going off course.

But since this is your game... You sound like you're going to do as you
please regardless so I won't bother anymore.

>Still it is not a bug since it is something we did on purpose. We had 4
>different tapes of races at Riverside and all of them show cars going off
>the track lap after lap at certian points on the track so we decided to
>model the AI that way.

>Scott Sanford
>Papyrus

>> Yes it is a bug.
>> I grew up in So. Calif. and saw plenty of races, including NASCAR, at
>> Riverside. I also raced with the SCCA there many times. Yes the Stock Car
>> guys used the dirt sometimes, but not like the AI in NL. Two inside
wheels
>> off the pavement (before the dragons teeth were put in) was common, but
>not
>> all four wheels every lap.

>> >Thats not a bug! Watch some old NASCAR tapes from Riverside and you
will
>> >see that they spent more time in the dirt than they did on the asphalt,
>> >especially in the esses and turn 6, and if you want to be fast at
>Riverside
>> >you better master cutting the corner at 6 because there is a lot of time
>to
>> >be made there.

>> >Scott Sanford
>> >Papyrus

>> >> Found an AI bug at Riverside Turn Six. The AI is going all the way
over
>> to
>> >> the fences on both the left going in, and the right at the apex as the
>> >> track. This is about 30 ft into the dirt on both sides! This happens
>with
>> >> every car on every lap regardles of traffic. Looks like Papy got the
>way
>> >> points wrong. Hope they fix this soon - the only reason I bought this
>was
>> >> for Riverside!

by **Douglas Sharp** » Sun, 31 Oct 1999 04:00:00

That's a lame excuse. Your modeling for most of the track, the esses for
instance, is good. The amount of "off road" cornering and passing is about
right. But noway, and I was there in person to see it, did they apex turn
six at the inside fence every lap. Tha't over 30 FEET off the pavement, with
an off camber slope from the fence to the asphalt. And even though they ran
on bias ply tires they were slicks, which everybody knows have more bite on
pavement than dirt. I can attest to the fact that Dan Gurney didn't use your
line, and he was the master of Riverside.

by **Norm L** » Sun, 31 Oct 1999 04:00:00

> > Just wondering then...in those tapes, did the cars behind an accident
stop
> > in the middle of the track and spin back n fourth in a circle :) Just
> > wondering cuz that happens in N3 as well and the only time I see real
> Nascar
> > drivers spin like that is when that Black # 3 is around :)

> Geeze, was that necessary?

Well if this was their first game that did this then no maybe not, but it is
a problem that was ignored thru many releases of Nascar Racing so having
slapped down my cash for the game I am intitled to point out the good the
bad and the ugly...... Godbless America!!

Norm

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by **Scott Sanfor** » Sun, 31 Oct 1999 04:00:00

I don't know, this actually made me laugh.<G> But I will pass along this
warning to him, once we start posting car files Norm better watch out for a
red #3 in his mirror.<G>

Scott Sanford
Papyrus

> > Just wondering then...in those tapes, did the cars behind an accident
stop
> > in the middle of the track and spin back n fourth in a circle :) Just
> > wondering cuz that happens in N3 as well and the only time I see real
> Nascar
> > drivers spin like that is when that Black # 3 is around :)

> Geeze, was that necessary?

> 1001 Papyrus employees quitting r.a.s. on a wall.. 1002 Papyrus employees
> quitting r.a.s. on a wall...

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...

> "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
> how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

by **Scott Sanfor** » Sun, 31 Oct 1999 04:00:00

I never meant to come across like that, if I did I apoligize also. As far
as the AI goes there are a few tools floating around on the net that will
let you change the AI yourself.

Scott Sanford
Papyrus

by **J Thurma** » Mon, 01 Nov 1999 03:00:00

I have watched many NASCAR races from the turn 6 grandstands at Riverside.
The cars did not leave the track in turn 6. They would hook the inside right
tire and use it to pivot the car for the exit.

Would it be possible to see the videos you used to plot this AI path? What
races (years) did you to use? I have seen "off roading" in the esses, but it
was always a single lap incident, not an every lap occurence.

Just interested in seeing how you came to this conclusion.

buzard......owner of every Papyrus sim ever made.

> Found an AI bug at Riverside Turn Six. The AI is going all the way over to
> the fences on both the left going in, and the right at the apex as the
> track. This is about 30 ft into the dirt on both sides! This happens with
> every car on every lap regardles of traffic. Looks like Papy got the way
> points wrong. Hope they fix this soon - the only reason I bought this was
> for Riverside!

by **J Thurma** » Mon, 01 Nov 1999 03:00:00

There is/was a utility to turn replays into an .LP file. Hopefully we can
get the line changed. Sounds like the track it self was done well.

buzard

> Found an AI bug at Riverside Turn Six. The AI is going all the way over to
> the fences on both the left going in, and the right at the apex as the
> track. This is about 30 ft into the dirt on both sides! This happens with
> every car on every lap regardles of traffic. Looks like Papy got the way
> points wrong. Hope they fix this soon - the only reason I bought this was
> for Riverside!

by **Norm L** » Mon, 01 Nov 1999 03:00:00

Just wondering then...in those tapes, did the cars behind an accident stop
in the middle of the track and spin back n fourth in a circle :) Just
wondering cuz that happens in N3 as well and the only time I see real Nascar
drivers spin like that is when that Black # 3 is around :)

Norm

> And people wonder why no one from Papy ever posts here. I really have no
> desire to argue this with you, I told you what we did and why we did it
and
> instead of just saying I was there and that is not what I saw I get all of
> this. I am glad that you think the track model is good, we spent a lot of
> time with very little info. to get this track right even though no one
> working on the project had ever been to the track. BTW, 1970 was the
first
> year that NASCAR ever ran slicks and that was only at Talladega.

> Scott Sanford
> Papyrus

> > That's a lame excuse. Your modeling for most of the track, the esses for
> > instance, is good. The amount of "off road" cornering and passing is
about
> > right. But noway, and I was there in person to see it, did they apex
turn
> > six at the inside fence every lap. Tha't over 30 FEET off the pavement,
> with
> > an off camber slope from the fence to the asphalt. And even though they
> ran
> > on bias ply tires they were slicks, which everybody knows have more bite
> on
> > pavement than dirt. I can attest to the fact that Dan Gurney didn't use
> your
> > line, and he was the master of Riverside.

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by **Alan Orto** » Mon, 01 Nov 1999 03:00:00

Well you can only blame yourselves, Papy. You were coming out with N3
w/gpl engine and then you ditched it at the last second, no wonder we
are a little touchy and picky with this rehashed engine stuff. If you
can't take a little criticism maybe your in the wrong business. Never
did see a "Sorry" come out of Papyrus or Sierra for ditching the sim
everyone was waiting for, for 3 years! Your just lucky you still have
customers, but you are losing them quickly. Plus where is the support
for Gpl?

> And people wonder why no one from Papy ever posts here.

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