rec.autos.simulators

>Scott,

>Sorry if it seems I'm slamming you personally, that wasn't my intention.
>But - your replies to my original post and my first rebuttal, seemed to say
>I didn't know what I'm talking about. I had to defend my position. As for
>knowledge of the track, you could have asked some of your customers with
>experience at Riverside to play test for you. We would have been glad to
>help. And finally.... will you please look into changing the way points in
>turn six?

>NO I'm Not "ENTITLED" to anything your right, but when you advertise a
>game for a while and pump up the hype then ditch it with no official
>excuse(on Papyrus website) of course it's going to get people in a
>"hissy fit".
>Don't they care enough about their customers and say sorry?
>Don't get mad at me for stating the my opinion, I have every right to
>say what I'm saying. I'm a customer.
>Btw N3 is NOT a huge improvement over N2 and N3, IMHO.
>I believe they started working on a Nascar sim Based on the gpl engine
>before the development of GPL. I read that in a interview with a papy
>employee, somewhere.

> And in most cases it is true! I lived in San Bermardino, 10 miles
> north of Riverside and went there for many races. Imagine waiting
> over 5 years for someone to make "your" track and then
> completely***it up because of a very foolish mistake. I have
> been trying to buy the game for the last 3 days (only for Riverside)
> but could not locate it. It appears that it was a good thing I didn't
> find it.

> buzard

> > > Thanks for posting this, the only reason I was going to buy NL was for
> > > Riverside, so now I have an excuse to keep my money.

> > There's one of these posts for every game I've ever seen.

> > "Oh, this bug is making me keep my money."

> > blah, blah.

> That's a lame excuse. Your modeling for most of the track, the esses for
> instance, is good. The amount of "off road" cornering and passing is about
> right. But noway, and I was there in person to see it, did they apex turn
> six at the inside fence every lap. Tha't over 30 FEET off the pavement, with
> an off camber slope from the fence to the asphalt. And even though they ran
> on bias ply tires they were slicks, which everybody knows have more bite on
> pavement than dirt. I can attest to the fact that Dan Gurney didn't use your
> line, and he was the master of Riverside.

> I have watched many NASCAR races from the turn 6 grandstands at Riverside.
> The cars did not leave the track in turn 6. They would hook the inside
right
> tire and use it to pivot the car for the exit.

> Would it be possible to see the videos you used to plot this AI path? What
> races (years) did you to use? I have seen "off roading" in the esses, but
it
> was always a single lap incident, not an every lap occurence.

> Just interested in seeing how you came to this conclusion.

> buzard......owner of every Papyrus sim ever made.

> > Found an AI bug at Riverside Turn Six. The AI is going all the way over
to
> > the fences on both the left going in, and the right at the apex as the
> > track. This is about 30 ft into the dirt on both sides! This happens
with
> > every car on every lap regardles of traffic. Looks like Papy got the way
> > points wrong. Hope they fix this soon - the only reason I bought this
was
> > for Riverside!

>Could you find out what videos were used in designing the line in turn
>6.
>I would really like to see for myself. I spent a lot of time at
>Riverside
>and don't recall anything like that.

>"The truth is out there"

>Yeah, right! Call me when you find it!

>buzard

>> I never meant to come across like that, if I did I apoligize also.  As
far
>> as the AI goes there are a few tools floating around on the net that will
>> let you change the AI yourself.

>> Scott Sanford
>> Papyrus

>> > Scott,

>> > Sorry if it seems I'm slamming you personally, that wasn't my
intention.
>> > But - your replies to my original post and my first rebuttal, seemed to
>> say
>> > I didn't know what I'm talking about. I had to defend my position. As
for
>> > knowledge of the track, you could have asked some of your customers
with
>> > experience at Riverside to play test for you. We would have been glad
to
>> > help. And finally.... will you please look into changing the way points
in
>> > turn six?

> It appears you should be working for Papy, Mr. Riverside Expert.  Please by
> all means don't buy the game.  And please by all means, quit your ***ing.

> > And in most cases it is true! I lived in San Bermardino, 10 miles
> > north of Riverside and went there for many races. Imagine waiting
> > over 5 years for someone to make "your" track and then
> > completely***it up because of a very foolish mistake. I have
> > been trying to buy the game for the last 3 days (only for Riverside)
> > but could not locate it. It appears that it was a good thing I didn't
> > find it.

> > buzard

> > > > Thanks for posting this, the only reason I was going to buy NL was for
> > > > Riverside, so now I have an excuse to keep my money.

> > > There's one of these posts for every game I've ever seen.

> > > "Oh, this bug is making me keep my money."

> > > blah, blah.

> Reduntant repetive... redundant... did I menteion repetitive

> I would take these ramblings with a grain of salt.

> > That's a lame excuse. Your modeling for most of the track, the esses for
> > instance, is good. The amount of "off road" cornering and passing is about
> > right. But noway, and I was there in person to see it, did they apex turn
> > six at the inside fence every lap. Tha't over 30 FEET off the pavement, with
> > an off camber slope from the fence to the asphalt. And even though they ran
> > on bias ply tires they were slicks, which everybody knows have more bite on
> > pavement than dirt. I can attest to the fact that Dan Gurney didn't use your
> > line, and he was the master of Riverside.

> I never meant to come across like that, if I did I apoligize also.  As far
> as the AI goes there are a few tools floating around on the net that will
> let you change the AI yourself.

> Scott Sanford
> Papyrus

> > Scott,

> > Sorry if it seems I'm slamming you personally, that wasn't my intention.
> > But - your replies to my original post and my first rebuttal, seemed to
> say
> > I didn't know what I'm talking about. I had to defend my position. As for
> > knowledge of the track, you could have asked some of your customers with
> > experience at Riverside to play test for you. We would have been glad to
> > help. And finally.... will you please look into changing the way points in
> > turn six?

> Doug,

> Been reading the posts on this one, and just wanted to make a quick
> comment.......
> I've been following NASCAR since I was old enough to say
> "Petty".......and I do recall (and I have seen several tapes along
> with live races from Riverside) that on several, several occasions,
> NASCAR drivers DID take that line...they would cut the corner either
> because;
> A. They were trying to "cheat" an edge, or
> B. They just flat messed up
> According to Buddy Baker, it was usually the latter....he himself used
> to say "I raced for 10 years at Riverside before I found out the esses
> were paved!" *G*
> I do recall in 1987 Earnhardt making such a move, and picking up two
> positions...in the dirt!!!!
> The point is, NASCAR Stock cars weren't built to run on a road course
> in those days.....but they did.  No, it's not a line that the likes of
> Dan Gurney or Mark Donohue would take, but then they were experienced
> road racers.  At this time, Riverside was the only road course on the
> NASCAR tour.
> After taking several practice laps with the AI, I noticed that not all
> cars took that line on every lap......what it appears that Papy tried
> to do was to simulate a move that honestly took place alot during the
> NASCAR events.  And as you and I know, AI won't do anything
> randomly.....take a few laps around N99's Tally with the new "three
> wide" AI for proof.....I've NEVER seen a car at Talladega hug the
> inside line all the way around (including the backstretch) without
> drafting help and still pull away.
> There is no way to simulate 100% real, true to life racing.......I
> think that the guys at Papy did a damned fine job at recreating a race
> track that has been gone for 10 years, and probably didnt' have alot
> on intact footage to go on.
> My best advice to you is to wait a week or so, and someone will come
> out with "improved" AI that will fix the problem.  But I honestly
> think they did a good job trying to recreate a very unique situation.

> Great work, guys!!!!  Some of the best money I've spent in a long
> time!!!!!

> -Brandon Reed
> Reed Racing & Engineering/Team Tabasco

> On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 04:24:55 -0700, "Douglas Sharpe"

> >Scott,

> >Sorry if it seems I'm slamming you personally, that wasn't my intention.
> >But - your replies to my original post and my first rebuttal, seemed to say
> >I didn't know what I'm talking about. I had to defend my position. As for
> >knowledge of the track, you could have asked some of your customers with
> >experience at Riverside to play test for you. We would have been glad to
> >help. And finally.... will you please look into changing the way points in
> >turn six?

>And in most cases it is true! I lived in San Bermardino, 10 miles
>north of Riverside and went there for many races. Imagine waiting
>over 5 years for someone to make "your" track and then
>completely***it up because of a very foolish mistake. I have
>been trying to buy the game for the last 3 days (only for Riverside)
>but could not locate it. It appears that it was a good thing I didn't
>find it.

>buzard

>> > Thanks for posting this, the only reason I was going to buy NL was for
>> > Riverside, so now I have an excuse to keep my money.

>> There's one of these posts for every game I've ever seen.

>> "Oh, this bug is making me keep my money."

>> blah, blah.

> But to make all the cars take the same line every lap, modeled after
> a few instances....????? I would still like to see those videos that
> they used. I never saw anything like that in years of sitting in turn
> 6.

> But I agree, it can be fixed. What is the best way to learn how to
> alter the line? I assume it is via the .LP file. I know there
> is/was a utility that changes a replay into an .LP file. But what
> else needs changing? Where can I get info? I know where to get the tools
> but without the knowledge the tools are useless. Also the tools
> are for N2, how do I modify for NL?

> buzard

> > Doug,

> > Been reading the posts on this one, and just wanted to make a quick
> > comment.......
> > I've been following NASCAR since I was old enough to say
> > "Petty".......and I do recall (and I have seen several tapes along
> > with live races from Riverside) that on several, several occasions,
> > NASCAR drivers DID take that line...they would cut the corner either
> > because;
> > A. They were trying to "cheat" an edge, or
> > B. They just flat messed up
> > According to Buddy Baker, it was usually the latter....he himself used
> > to say "I raced for 10 years at Riverside before I found out the esses
> > were paved!" *G*
> > I do recall in 1987 Earnhardt making such a move, and picking up two
> > positions...in the dirt!!!!
> > The point is, NASCAR Stock cars weren't built to run on a road course
> > in those days.....but they did.  No, it's not a line that the likes of
> > Dan Gurney or Mark Donohue would take, but then they were experienced
> > road racers.  At this time, Riverside was the only road course on the
> > NASCAR tour.
> > After taking several practice laps with the AI, I noticed that not all
> > cars took that line on every lap......what it appears that Papy tried
> > to do was to simulate a move that honestly took place alot during the
> > NASCAR events.  And as you and I know, AI won't do anything
> > randomly.....take a few laps around N99's Tally with the new "three
> > wide" AI for proof.....I've NEVER seen a car at Talladega hug the
> > inside line all the way around (including the backstretch) without
> > drafting help and still pull away.
> > There is no way to simulate 100% real, true to life racing.......I
> > think that the guys at Papy did a damned fine job at recreating a race
> > track that has been gone for 10 years, and probably didnt' have alot
> > on intact footage to go on.
> > My best advice to you is to wait a week or so, and someone will come
> > out with "improved" AI that will fix the problem.  But I honestly
> > think they did a good job trying to recreate a very unique situation.

> > Great work, guys!!!!  Some of the best money I've spent in a long
> > time!!!!!

> > -Brandon Reed
> > Reed Racing & Engineering/Team Tabasco

> > On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 04:24:55 -0700, "Douglas Sharpe"

> > >Scott,

> > >Sorry if it seems I'm slamming you personally, that wasn't my
intention.
> > >But - your replies to my original post and my first rebuttal, seemed to
say
> > >I didn't know what I'm talking about. I had to defend my position. As
for
> > >knowledge of the track, you could have asked some of your customers
with
> > >experience at Riverside to play test for you. We would have been glad
to
> > >help. And finally.... will you please look into changing the way points
in
> > >turn six?