rec.autos.simulators

by **Jason Moy** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:30:13

Exactly. And all of the <fast> and <expert> setups that ship with the
game are tight as ***. Pardon the language, but they're horrible.

Run about 25 laps as hard as you can in either and then measure the
tire temps. With the fast setups, your front will average about 20
degrees hotter than the rear, with the experts anywhere from slightly
above 0 to 20.

By contrast, my own setups are typically at least 5 degrees warmer in
the rear, which is about as loose as I can personally go without
sliding (altho at Atlanta I tend to run even looser).

Jason

by **Jason Moy** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:31:25

Yes. However, if you actually made the groove grippier (and even in
real life, the groove is marginally grippier at best) it would just
make the "I can't drive the high line" problem worse. Most of the
track modelling fixes people have done actually increase the track
grip up high where there should be less.

Jason

by **Jason Moy** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:34:39

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 01:30:48 +0000, Peter Ives

>Without getting too technical, does such a minor change in steering
>angle through a corner require that much of a major setup change for
>things to work as well as on the inside line? Why shouldn't the current
>setup that works for the inside line not work anywhere near as well for
>1 lane out?

Haqsau explained it better than I can, but in a nutshell if you race
the high line you're slowing later for the corner, carrying more speed
into and through the corner, and taking a different radius. In order
for a setup to be comfortable running high, it has to be slightly
loose running low. With setups that are neutral or pushy when running
a normal line, you'll never be able to do competitive alternate lines
without hitting the wall.

Go to http://www.sim-replays.de/ if you haven't already and try out a
setup or two there. I haven't tried his latest, but typically the
ones I have tried (at Bristol, for instance) I was more comfortable
running 1 to 1.5 car lengths away from the apron in the corners
because the car was more neutral/stable there and I'm not skilled
enough to drive a car that loose on a tight radius.

Jason

by **Jason Moy** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:39:33

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:50:50 -0500, "ymenard"

>But then again just watch the VRW guys run multiple grooves during their
>online race. It's the drivers/setups that are at fault if you can't do it
>that way.

Yeah, it's weird hearing people complaining about this sort of thing
when their N2003 experience consists entirely of running
unrealistically tight setups.

If a real cup driver were stuck in a car that handled like a <fast>
seutp they'd pull in after 3 laps and wonder wtf was wrong with it.

Jason

by **Joachim Trens** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:45:53

I think WRT a groove, it is perfectly credible that any line where many
or most cars drive, is cleaner (cleaned of dirt) and has more *** on
it (which allegedly increases grip) and is hence faster than other
sections of the track where nobody drives, due to these two
circumstances. I.e., the drivers can create their own second or third
grooves by driving these lines.

The shortcoming of the sim as compared to the real world is that while
in reality if enough drivers decide to try a different line, that line
becomes a second groove, and on some tracks there may even a third
groove be created that way, in our sims, we only have the one groove
defined by the programmers.

That's IMO why there's such a preference for the groove on some tracks,
while in real life there may be up to three identically fast lines on
that same track.

N2005 needs a feature where the amount of laps drivers drive on a
certain line determines the grip that line has over the weekend :)

Achim

by **Bill Bollinge** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 21:13:29

YM is wrong about VRW running multiple grooves at Rockingham. I can
guarantee you there is only 1 groove at Rock. Only way we can get
multi-grooves at these tracks is to modify the track type and adjust the
grip on the outer areas.

I run in VRW and had the best car at the Rock race this year and no one was
running a high line there. Only way to pass was off of 2 (underneath) and
off of 4 (underneath).

Bill Bollinger
www.gsxn.com

by **Bill Bollinge** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 21:19:00

Snuh? You need to run the DegaBR track to see if his outside line style
works. I can tell you that we can make tracks that "race" like real life.
They are being done already. The problem is that few people know about it
yet. I don't think it will be popular until someone comes out with a total
"mod" that has all of the tracks fixed at one time, not just one track at a
time.

Bill Bollinger
www.gsxn.com

> >I have pretty limited knowledge of how the "groove" is modelled in
> >NR2003 tracks, but isn't this something that could be fixed by a
> >competent track modeller? If there's a line that has better grip -
> >wouldn't this actually be defined in the track model?

> Yes. However, if you actually made the groove grippier (and even in
> real life, the groove is marginally grippier at best) it would just
> make the "I can't drive the high line" problem worse. Most of the
> track modelling fixes people have done actually increase the track
> grip up high where there should be less.

> Jason

by JP » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:14:14

Hehe.....can't wait until some of the guys here try to tell this guy he
can't/doesn't know how to run the high line. He's forgot more about sim
racing than this whole ng probably knows <g>

> Snuh? You need to run the DegaBR track to see if his outside line style
> works. I can tell you that we can make tracks that "race" like real life.
> They are being done already. The problem is that few people know about it
> yet. I don't think it will be popular until someone comes out with a
total
> "mod" that has all of the tracks fixed at one time, not just one track at
a
> time.

> Bill Bollinger
> www.gsxn.com

> > >I have pretty limited knowledge of how the "groove" is modelled in
> > >NR2003 tracks, but isn't this something that could be fixed by a
> > >competent track modeller? If there's a line that has better grip -
> > >wouldn't this actually be defined in the track model?

> > Yes. However, if you actually made the groove grippier (and even in
> > real life, the groove is marginally grippier at best) it would just
> > make the "I can't drive the high line" problem worse. Most of the
> > track modelling fixes people have done actually increase the track
> > grip up high where there should be less.

> > Jason

by JP » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:15:44

> On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:50:50 -0500, "ymenard"

> >But then again just watch the VRW guys run multiple grooves during their
> >online race. It's the drivers/setups that are at fault if you can't do
it
> >that way.

> Yeah, it's weird hearing people complaining about this sort of thing
> when their N2003 experience consists entirely of running
> unrealistically tight setups.

> If a real cup driver were stuck in a car that handled like a <fast>
> seutp they'd pull in after 3 laps and wonder wtf was wrong with it.

> Jason

Lol, yeah, right.

by **Uwe Sch??rkam** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:21:58

> Only way of saving it with any consistency, I've found, is to hit the
> brakes. How hard you need to do this will depend of how far gone the
> car is and its guaranteed to f**k-up your tyres if you have to do so for
> more than a fraction of a second, and of course, doing this in traffic
> can cause other problems, especially online. :)

Not in F1C, though. Tyre wear is next to non-existent on the standard
setting ("1x"), I really have no idea what ISI was thinking when they
"modelled" tyre wear in F1C. But then again, maybe I'm just not going
fast enough in F1C to wear down the tyres noticeably over 20 laps
(even on soft *** ;-)

F1C online: While I've seen a couple of 10+ races that worked out
reasonably well online, I'm amazed by the amount of traffic f1c
generates. 20-30MB for 15 mins on online play is nothing, and quickly
turns into a problem that costs real money for those of us on volume
accounted DSL lines with a volume cap of say, a gigabyte a month and
two other surfing family members ;-)

Judging by traffic volume alone F1C should be excellent
online. Judging by online gameplay, well... 8-P

Cheers,

uwe

--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

by **Jason Moy** » Sat, 06 Mar 2004 00:20:13

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 07:13:29 -0500, "Bill Bollinger"

>I run in VRW and had the best car at the Rock race this year

Really.....

Jason

by **Jason Moy** » Sat, 06 Mar 2004 00:26:26

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 07:19:00 -0500, "Bill Bollinger"

>Snuh? You need to run the DegaBR track to see if his outside line style
>works.

Depends on what you mean by 'works' I guess. I don't see how building
a track with more grip outside of the main groove is improving the
accuracy of the sim at all, but I guess YMMV.

Jason

by **Mitch_** » Sat, 06 Mar 2004 01:24:29

Youre dreamin frankie ole boy. Ive ran at one time or another most of the
guys in VRW and you act like they have some kind of special skills or magic
potions. Most arent any different than anyone here except they spend more
time and effort getting fast (than I do anyway). Ego's rule in that deal.

The high groove works good on dega and daytona if ya get a few guys that
hang in up there. The "Rock"? No way does the high line work and if you
insist you'll just lose what little credibility you still have...

Mitch

by **Eldre** » Sat, 06 Mar 2004 02:09:18

I find the <fast> setups very LOOSE. I'm constantly trying to keep from
spinning out...
I must be the only one who feels that way.

Eldred
--
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
Screamers League
IICC League
GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80
Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71
Hist. +82.34 MoH:na
N2k3 rank:in progress
Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin
Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro
US East

by **Dave Henri** » Sat, 06 Mar 2004 04:42:14

> writes

>>> In my experience with NR2003, if you go wider than the darkened groove
>>> the grip reduces drastically. So, depending on how wide the groove is,
>>> that's how much choice you've got when choosing a line through the
>>> corners. This is when running the non-SS tracks, of course. It may
>>> well be there in the SS tracks as well, but because of the steeper
>>> banking, it doesn't show as much.
>>> --
>>> Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
>>> Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
>>> If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
>>> GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -25.01

>>Yep, exactly. Problem is, that's not how it is at several of the actual
>>tracks during actual racing <g>

> So is the groove just wider in some of the actual tracks and that's why
> they can run several lines on them?

A 'groove' and a 'line' are two different things. A groove usually
follows the preferred line. What a groove is a buildup of tire *** on
the track surface. The more *** is laid down, the more visibly apparent
the groove is and the better the overall grip. I'm not talking about the
loose stray marbles that fall off of tires and usually get blown off to the
outer edges of the track, but the small particles that are wedged into the
rough surface of the track. The more *** squeezed onto the track, the
greater the grip. So when a track has more than one groove, it means that
the drivers have found they can run more than one line and thus more ***
gets laid down so it's easier to drive high or low.
Cart has found recently that even different *** compounds affects
their lap times. For Instance when they share a weekend with the Trans Am
cars, they have to waste a set of tires scrubbing the Trans Am *** and
covering it with the CART Spec ***.

This, as is my usual, is an oversimplification, but does cover the
basics. For a sim like Nr2k3 to deal with a groove, we'd have to have some
code for the track surface that deals with increased ***...i.e. for X
amount of cars and XX amount of laps the track surface gets .xxx gripier,
but only were the cars are running so that the center of the groove might
be .xxxx grippy but the edges might be only .xx. Clear?

lol

dave henrie

rec.autos.simulators

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod