rec.autos.simulators

by JP » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 09:04:40

> writes

> >> In my experience with NR2003, if you go wider than the darkened groove
> >> the grip reduces drastically. So, depending on how wide the groove is,
> >> that's how much choice you've got when choosing a line through the
> >> corners. This is when running the non-SS tracks, of course. It may
> >> well be there in the SS tracks as well, but because of the steeper
> >> banking, it doesn't show as much.
> >> --
> >> Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
> >> Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
> >> If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
> >> GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -25.01

> >Yep, exactly. Problem is, that's not how it is at several of the actual
> >tracks during actual racing <g>

> So is the groove just wider in some of the actual tracks and that's why
> they can run several lines on them?
> --
> Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
> Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
> If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
> GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -25.01

Well, it's not so much as "a" groove, as there's just multiple lines. The
"groove" in the game at various tracks, doesn't exist on the actual tracks,
at least as an all or nothing, well defined affair, as in the game.

I.e., outside line is one of the preferred ones at Rockingham, C***te,
Michigan, California, Atlanta, etc. in actual racing. Try that online in
03(don't know about offline) sometime. Irregardless of the setup being
used.

by **Eldre** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 09:41:38

>What I mean is that it's very difficult to drive the F1 cars fast, and
>string together a lot of fast laps. It's very easy to make a mistake, even a
>slight one, that can ruin a lap or a race. If someone gets sim 'training'
>with those F1 cars, the TA and Cup cars in N2003 seem quite a bit easier.
>They physics are good in both, but the F1 cars are much more of a challenge.

Ah, ok. My problem with the F1 is that the car breaks loose without any
(noticeable) warning. I'm backwards into a wall before I know what's happened.
With the cup cars, I can feel the car breaking loose, but once that happens
it's gone - I can't save it. Full opposite lock can't bring it back in line.
I agree that F1 cars are more of a challenge, but the cup cars are a challenge
to me as well.

Eldred
--
http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Screamers League
IICC League
GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80
Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71
Hist. +82.34 MoH:na
N2k3 rank:in progress
Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin
Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro
US East

by **Jason Moy** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 09:58:22

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 23:49:30 +0000, Peter Ives

>So is the groove just wider in some of the actual tracks and that's why
>they can run several lines on them?

Not commenting on real life here, but in N2003 each surface type has 1
grip value per track. Some of the modified tracks will use 2 separate
surface types to add more grip in the high part of the banking than
there is in the low part (which is totally unrealistic, but to each
their own). The Papyrus tracks use one kind of surface type for
tarmac and one kind for concrete. For instance, at Rockingham, you
have the exact same amount of grip just above the apron as you do
running 1 foot away from the wall.

Of course, as I said before, the inability to run the high line has
more to do with setup than a failing in the game engine.

Jason

by **ymenar** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 09:50:50

> Ill just use Rock as an example of how great Papy track modeling is seeing
> how we just ran it. Lets see, real life 3 distinct grooves, in NR03 3/4
of
> a groove. Yep thats right on the money Mr. President ;)

But then again just watch the VRW guys run multiple grooves during their
online race. It's the drivers/setups that are at fault if you can't do it
that way.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Peter Ive** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 10:14:12

writes

>message

>> writes

>> >> In my experience with NR2003, if you go wider than the darkened
>groove
>> >> the grip reduces drastically. So, depending on how wide the groove is,
>> >> that's how much choice you've got when choosing a line through the
>> >> corners. This is when running the non-SS tracks, of course. It may
>> >> well be there in the SS tracks as well, but because of the steeper
>> >> banking, it doesn't show as much.
>> >> --
>> >> Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
>> >> Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
>> >> If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
>> >> GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -25.01

>> >Yep, exactly. Problem is, that's not how it is at several of the actual
>> >tracks during actual racing <g>

>> So is the groove just wider in some of the actual tracks and that's why
>> they can run several lines on them?
>> --
>> Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
>> Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
>> If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
>> GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -25.01

> Well, it's not so much as "a" groove, as there's just multiple lines. The
>"groove" in the game at various tracks, doesn't exist on the actual tracks,
>at least as an all or nothing, well defined affair, as in the game.

> I.e., outside line is one of the preferred ones at Rockingham, C***te,
>Michigan, California, Atlanta, etc. in actual racing. Try that online in
>03(don't know about offline) sometime. Irregardless of the setup being
>used.

So the darkened groove in real life tracks is something that is created
over the course of a weekend because the cars are able to run those
lines in the first place. Yes?

Whereas, with NR2003 all you are given is the 1 groove, as wide as it
happens to be depending upon the track. If it ain't dark in the first
place, you can't run there. Yep?
--
Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -25.01

by **Peter Ive** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 10:19:28

>>What I mean is that it's very difficult to drive the F1 cars fast, and
>>string together a lot of fast laps. It's very easy to make a mistake, even a
>>slight one, that can ruin a lap or a race. If someone gets sim 'training'
>>with those F1 cars, the TA and Cup cars in N2003 seem quite a bit easier.
>>They physics are good in both, but the F1 cars are much more of a
>challenge.

>Ah, ok. My problem with the F1 is that the car breaks loose without any
>(noticeable) warning. I'm backwards into a wall before I know what's
>happened.
> With the cup cars, I can feel the car breaking loose, but once that happens
>it's gone - I can't save it. Full opposite lock can't bring it back in line.
>I agree that F1 cars are more of a challenge, but the cup cars are a
>challenge
>to me as well.

Only way of saving it with any consistency, I've found, is to hit the
brakes. How hard you need to do this will depend of how far gone the
car is and its guaranteed to f**k-up your tyres if you have to do so for
more than a fraction of a second, and of course, doing this in traffic
can cause other problems, especially online. :)
--
Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -25.01

by **Jan Verschuere** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 10:26:20

You have to realise, Fran?ois, there's only six reasonably good drivers in
RASCAR: Neil, Ginger, Mark, Brian Oster, Eldred and myself(*) and we're not
up to VRW standard. Also we're stuck with either the <fast> or <expert>
setup, neither of which is ideal.

Jan ;-))
=---

(*): I'd count Robert Huggings among those if he ever got any real
opposition.

by **Peter Ive** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 10:30:48

>On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 23:49:30 +0000, Peter Ives

>>So is the groove just wider in some of the actual tracks and that's why
>>they can run several lines on them?

>Not commenting on real life here, but in N2003 each surface type has 1
>grip value per track. Some of the modified tracks will use 2 separate
>surface types to add more grip in the high part of the banking than
>there is in the low part (which is totally unrealistic, but to each
>their own). The Papyrus tracks use one kind of surface type for
>tarmac and one kind for concrete. For instance, at Rockingham, you
>have the exact same amount of grip just above the apron as you do
>running 1 foot away from the wall.

>Of course, as I said before, the inability to run the high line has
>more to do with setup than a failing in the game engine.

Why would this be? I can do alright when on the inside at Rockingham.
Now, if I drive 1 lane out, so to speak, I'm not really making much of a
change to the steering angle (perhaps a couple of degrees).

Without getting too technical, does such a minor change in steering
angle through a corner require that much of a major setup change for
things to work as well as on the inside line? Why shouldn't the current
setup that works for the inside line not work anywhere near as well for
1 lane out?

I would have thought the track itself is pretty even from inside to
outside and track temp should also be the same. I wouldn't imagine Papy
has put that much detail into its track model so that there are
varieties in how it affects the car depending upon what line you are
taking (ie. dark groove compared to rest of track), no varying camber
etc. So all you are left with is how much you need to turn the wheel
and the speed you can maintain without sliding. Am I being too
simplistic?
--
Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington)
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying

No person's opinions can be said to be
more correct than another's, because each is
the sole judge of his or her own experience.

by JP » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 10:41:04

> writes

> >message

> >> writes

> >> >> In my experience with NR2003, if you go wider than the darkened
> >groove
> >> >> the grip reduces drastically. So, depending on how wide the groove
is,
> >> >> that's how much choice you've got when choosing a line through the
> >> >> corners. This is when running the non-SS tracks, of course. It may
> >> >> well be there in the SS tracks as well, but because of the steeper
> >> >> banking, it doesn't show as much.
> >> >> --
> >> >> Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
> >> >> Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
> >> >> If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
> >> >> GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -25.01

> >> >Yep, exactly. Problem is, that's not how it is at several of the
actual
> >> >tracks during actual racing <g>

> >> So is the groove just wider in some of the actual tracks and that's why
> >> they can run several lines on them?
> >> --
> >> Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
> >> Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
> >> If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
> >> GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -25.01

> > Well, it's not so much as "a" groove, as there's just multiple lines.
The
> >"groove" in the game at various tracks, doesn't exist on the actual
tracks,
> >at least as an all or nothing, well defined affair, as in the game.

> > I.e., outside line is one of the preferred ones at Rockingham,
C***te,
> >Michigan, California, Atlanta, etc. in actual racing. Try that online in
> >03(don't know about offline) sometime. Irregardless of the setup being
> >used.

> So the darkened groove in real life tracks is something that is created
> over the course of a weekend because the cars are able to run those
> lines in the first place. Yes?

> Whereas, with NR2003 all you are given is the 1 groove, as wide as it
> happens to be depending upon the track. If it ain't dark in the first
> place, you can't run there. Yep?
> --
> Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
> Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
> If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
> GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -25.01

Yes, and of course, because they choose to run there vs. somewhere else on
the track.

Sort of; can run there, just not worth a damn. And it has nothing to do
with the setup being used. I never got a response for a clip showing a
clean 40 car online race as a poster was mentioning the other day.
Anyone have a clip of an online race showing the outside and/or middle
line of a non-ss track working in 03 as it does in real life ? Never seen
one in person or via replay myself, in any of the Nx series.

by **David G Fishe** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 11:00:24

This conversation has taken place before here at ras.

You won't get the replay you're looking for. Trust me. :-)

David G Fisher

by **Kendt Eklu** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 11:00:21

> writes

> <snip>

> > Well, it's not so much of drifting into the wall, as that the high lines
> >at various tracks aren't modeled well, if at all, compared to the way the
> >actual tracks are run. For one thing, the Papy tracks are, or at least
> >look(as in perception) like they are from the 03***pit, to narrow compared
> >to the actual tracks.

> > Don't know if it's an incorrect grip in the Papy tracks outside of the low
> >line along with the above or what. But virtually no where in the sim can
> >you run competitive high lines, that they do in actual racing. As long as
> >you get a lot of dedicated help, you can at the 03 ss's though, but I'm
> >referring to the non- ss tracks.

> > Several non-ss tracks where two and three wide is the norm, whereas in the
> >game, the low line is it; it leaves the others in the dust.

> In my experience with NR2003, if you go wider than the darkened groove
> the grip reduces drastically. So, depending on how wide the groove is,
> that's how much choice you've got when choosing a line through the
> corners. This is when running the non-SS tracks, of course. It may
> well be there in the SS tracks as well, but because of the steeper
> banking, it doesn't show as much.

I have pretty limited knowledge of how the "groove" is modelled in
NR2003 tracks, but isn't this something that could be fixed by a
competent track modeller? If there's a line that has better grip -
wouldn't this actually be defined in the track model?

Kendt

by **Haqsa** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 11:42:16

Just purely from a technical standpoint the biggest difference between an
inside line and an outside line is that on the outside line you are going
faster, which could change your aero balance and which will slightly
increase the downforce and cornering force. How big of a difference this is
I don't know.

From a more practical standpoint, whenever I have watched somebody taking
the outside line on TV they don't just go high and stay high, they use a
high diamond or double apex line. IOW when they turn in initially they go
down about one lane width, slide back up to the wall between 1-2 or 3-4, and
then turn down a lane width again before sliding out on the exit. This, and
the fact that you are going over a much bigger transition from the straight
to the banking, would seem to require some setup changes. You need a looser
car to make a double apex line work or your speed will drop too much in the
middle. And the bigger banking transition might require different dampers.

>

by JP » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 12:02:20

> > Yes, and of course, because they choose to run there vs. somewhere
else
> on
> > the track.

> > Sort of; can run there, just not worth a damn. And it has nothing to
do
> > with the setup being used. I never got a response for a clip showing a
> > clean 40 car online race as a poster was mentioning the other day.
> > Anyone have a clip of an online race showing the outside and/or middle
> > line of a non-ss track working in 03 as it does in real life ? Never
seen
> > one in person or via replay myself, in any of the Nx series.

> This conversation has taken place before here at ras.

> You won't get the replay you're looking for. Trust me. :-)

> David G Fisher

Didn't expect too, but thanks <g>

- Show quoted text -

by JP » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 12:06:22

> > Ill just use Rock as an example of how great Papy track modeling is
seeing
> > how we just ran it. Lets see, real life 3 distinct grooves, in NR03 3/4
> of
> > a groove. Yep thats right on the money Mr. President ;)

> But then again just watch the VRW guys run multiple grooves during their
> online race. It's the drivers/setups that are at fault if you can't do it
> that way.

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
> Corporation - helping America into the New World...

I've watched VRW replays in the past. Never seen this happen, and the
outside car keep/gain position in an online track that they do lap after lap
in real life, on a non-ss track. Sure, you can run multiple grooves, that's
not the problem. Just not with realistic results.

- Show quoted text -

by **Little Jo** » Fri, 05 Mar 2004 12:29:02

Boy did this thread drift from TA to nascar. Oh well so goes any meanigful
discussion
about the new Trans Am mod.

rec.autos.simulators

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod

Trans-Am Mod