rec.autos.simulators

That's a selective quote, and it shifts the context of the original
statement (do you work for a tabloid? ;-).

QUOTE: "I don't think it is a case of the roof cam giving an advantage *over
reality*...".

The statement was about a realistic viewpoint. The***pit camera gives a
disadvantage compared to what is available visually in real life, it is not
necessarily a disadvantage compared to the other cameras available. Imagine
a game with only one drivable camera - the***pit view. That would still
give a disadvantage compared to the visual aspects of driving a car in real
life, but it doesn't make it a disadvantage over any other viewpoints simply
because there is no alternative viewpoint to compare to.

The point is, driving from the***pit view is actually less realistic in
terms of visual input than the roof cam. Considering the main method of
knowing what the car is doing in a simulator is by looking at the screen
[1], whereas in real life you can feel it through your arse, it seems
pointless to handicap yourself *even more* from driving the car on the limit
on top of the inherent problems with simulators which we all know about. So
maybe there should be a Force Roof Cam option in N2003...

Stopping head-movement from the***pit view, and allowing the user to move
the camera forwards or backwards as they see fit would be a huge
improvement. Not a FOV change, like in Grand Prix 3, but actually moving the
camera position and camera target around until you get a natural angle for
the camera, which you are comfortable driving from, will not move around
inside the car, but still retains the***pit graphics (so you can have them
just off the bottom of the screen if you like). How about a hat-switch on a
steering wheel so you can move your head left and right, up and down? I know
in my 3D engine this is extremely simple to do; in fact, all the cameras use
this arrangement, so you can get every possible angle quite easily, both
inside and outside the car.

Wow, this is getting quite serious for a tongue-in-cheek post...

Nick.

[1] Force feedback (when done properly, which only Papyrus seem to be able
to do, and they still have a way to go), gives a nice feel to what the front
end of the car is doing, and a force feedback brake/clutch would be amazing,
especially for GPL. But visual clues give the best idea of what a simulated
car is doing, which is also another reason why a viewpoint fixed to the car
is better to drive with than one which is relatively free to move around the
***pit, as in N2002, and N2003 I guess.

But seriously, the sun glare should be there.  It's realistic, you view
through the car's windshield.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

David G Fisher

And for online racing, it makes it *impossible* to make it back to
your pit safely without asking for a tow...  Thanks, but no thanks -
I don't care to lose a lap simply because of someone else's sense of
"realism" or "fair play".  You do what you gotta do to stay in the
race and on the lead lap.

Most of us try not to get a crumpled hood, but the plain and simple
fact of the matter is that your race almost never goes as planned.  
Shit happens, and we get our hoods pushed up to the point that we
can't see past them.  I for one don't want to get flamed because I
happened to run into someone because***pits were forced on and I
couldn't see past my hood because of it.

I will agree with the last statement.

Bristol testing session.... Drive but don't move.
In the***pit view you can see some of the radatior grill of the
ambulance. In roof view you cannot even see the left headlight.

Norman

That would mean they would need to code a REAL server code.  I know, bring
it into the 21st century.  I wouldn't hold my breath.  That has been asked
as an addition for the last 3 years.

Here is another addition:  When a "Boss" or whomever starts up a race on a
server.  Have the server pull that persons muzzle list rather than using
whatever one is on the server.  That by itself would be very easy to
implement.  Will it be done?  Doubt it...

I am not holding my breath that the damage model or drafting model will be
fixed.

<snip> And for online racing, it makes it *impossible* to make it back to

Hmmm...  Never had my hood wasted so bad I couldn't manage to crawl back to
the pits, and I've been in some truly gruesome pickup races.  In my defense,
I have managed to bash the windshield badly enough in Rally Trophy to cause
me to hop out onto the hood to finish a stage.  So perhaps there's hope for
me yet!

While I know it has a frustration element, I think that for ALL INVOLVED to
have to deal equally with racing's difficulties makes for racers who are
more uniformly careful, and thus more predictable to drive close to.  I have
a number of online replays where there are more than a few cars running
around with bashed-up hoods, and I think those drivers would've approached
the races differently if they'd expected to be more inconvenienced by any
accidents they got into or caused.  Which I think would've made those races
much better in terms of quality for all involved.

In truth, the possibility of being put out by a crash not only encourages
caution, but heightens the drama of close racing; it actually enriches the
experience of racing.  Crashes are SUPPOSED to suck, after all;  especially
when they're not your fault.  And no problem you "run into" online will ever
get close to how much they really DO suck.  I have real scars to attest to
that one.  But as I said before, the current prediction/collision code too
often makes the result of slight contacts worse than it should be.  A lot of
that annoying hood-crumpling just shouldn't be happening.

Anyway, as long as it's an optional host/server choice, there should still
be plenty of races without POV and other similar restrictions for those who
don't like them.  Obviously, some don't!  ;-)

SB

Indeed.  Papyrus still hasn't said anything about lens flare except for
external views in those screenshots.  Nobody can assume they will be for the
***pit driving view.  I speculate they will only be for external views
(Replay cameras) therefore making them realistic.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

--
ed_

They say that the POV in NR2K3 will be adjustable when in***pit
mode, and I'll probably go back to***pit mode if i think the POV is
adequate, but if not, I'm staying on the roof.

So, just because you can SEE "for friggin' miles" as you so eloquently put
it, do you actually think that, that person can GET to that spot they are
LOOKING at before a "Cage Driver" does? If you do you have a LOT to learn
about Sim Racing. Given that they are both running fixed setup, the better
driver will always get there first irregardless of which View he is using.
And if it is open setup it is opened up to even more variables, none of
which include which view either of them are using. Just because you can SEE
it doesnt mean you can GET there any faster.

- Isotrip?