rec.autos.simulators

5 things Papy MUST include in N2003...

Jason Moy

5 things Papy MUST include in N2003...

by Jason Moy » Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:50:24

On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:23:18 +0100, "Ed Solheim"


>1. Allow hosts/server-admins to turn off the wall-riding "fix"

It should also be possible to disable this in testing and solo race
sessions.  Biggest nuisance in N2002.

Yep.

How would disabling this be an advantage?  The confusion of finding
your pitstall?  Maybe they could just force pit boards for all teams
on (wouldn't incur a huge framerate hit but would still make it
necessary to pay attention to your pit location).

Agreed.  I have a feeling this will be in the game, but who knows.

I'd like to see the ability to define multiple server admins (aside
from just a single "Boss") and to allow them more power on the server.
Admins should be able to throw black flags, yellow flags, and red
flags as well as kicking/banning users by IP addresses and hostmasks
with support for wildcards (so you could, for example, ban *.fr or
127.* from your server).

Jason

Isotrip

5 things Papy MUST include in N2003...

by Isotrip » Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:17:50


*GASP*

ARCADER!!!!

:oP

- Isotrip?

Gerald Moo

5 things Papy MUST include in N2003...

by Gerald Moo » Wed, 27 Nov 2002 22:25:35

I must say it again: bring back the ability for admin to control the
race flags.

Also, re #1, how about just come up with a realistic solution to
wallriding?

I don't really care much about sweeter eye-candy.  There is a lot of
unfulfilled potential in other areas of the game that I'd like to see
addressed, most of which has already been mentioned in rhis thread.

I am not going to hold my breath.  Well, except for the flags part.

Gerald


> 1. Allow hosts/server-admins to turn off the wall-riding "fix"

> 2. Allow hosts/server-admins to force dirt/oil on wind-shield.

> 3. Allow hosts/server-admins to enforce the number of pitcrews to be
> displayed.

> 4. Allow hosts/server-admins to force sun-glare/lens flare/shadows (if this
> is something you see in the car and not just on replays.)

> 5. Allow hosts/server-admins to enforce any [other] setting that might give
> an advantage if turned on/off.
> [or any other setting I might have forgotten :-)]

Ed Solhei

5 things Papy MUST include in N2003...

by Ed Solhei » Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:07:59

"Obake" said:

That I am *fully* aware of....  My concern/point [with this post] was to get
a level playingfield - meaning we all play by the same rules.  The realism
of lensflare or what ever was not on my mind at all.

And just for the record - I am not asking that we *all* must use these
rules - all I want is the ability to enforce them - so that each host,
driver or league might choose what setting *they* want to enfore in *their*
races.

--
ed_

$10 says Petter Solberg wins the 2003 WRC.

Ed Solhei

5 things Papy MUST include in N2003...

by Ed Solhei » Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:15:13


> >3. Allow hosts/server-admins to enforce the number of pitcrews to be
> >displayed.

> How would disabling this be an advantage?  The confusion of finding
> your pitstall?

Exactly.  What to you think is easier: findind you pitstall with 1 pitcrew
in the pits or finding your pitstall with say... 20 pitcrews?

Maybe they could just force pit boards for all teams

I dont give a rats ass if people's computers cant handle the pitcrews
*now* - what I want if *the ability* to enforce this rule *someday* when all
the drivers in my league or what ever got PC's the can handle this sort of
ting...  Remember this *is*  the final edition!

--
ed_

----------------------------------------------
$10 says Petter Solberg wins the 2003 WRC.

Ed Solhei

5 things Papy MUST include in N2003...

by Ed Solhei » Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:22:36


> I fail to see how have better peripheral vision (knowing when a car
> is beside you) and being able to seee over a crumple hood is a bad
> thing.  Forcing***pit view is just plain stupid and dangerous to
> other online drivers.  For road racing, I roof-race so that I can see
> a little farther down the track.

If you cant see - you *slow down* - PERIOD. End of discossuion.

All I want is the ability to get equal rules for all the drivers that enter
any given race...

If I were given a choice I'd enforce***pit-view right away..
Why should you guys be given an advantage just because you cant seem to get
to grips with racing from the hotseat?  Say if I couldnt reach 198mph at
Dega - should I be given 15 hp extra?

--
ed_

----------------------------------------------------------------------
$10 says Petter Solberg wins the 2003 WRC.

Mitch_

5 things Papy MUST include in N2003...

by Mitch_ » Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:23:43

Youre a roof rider too John?  If there is no advantage then why use it?  Ive
always felt roof riding was advantagous and should never have been included
in this SIM.  I will not roof-ride just so I can be competitive.  Just by
saying "I can see farther" then you have an advantage.   When Im running
side by side with a roof rider I must be overly cautious while the
roof-rider can clearly see where I am.  This isnt an advantage?  Personally
I do this to replicate as closely as possible what the RL drivers see and
feel and last I checked Ive never seen a RL driver roof-ride.... Why does
RASCAR use fixed setups then?  Isnt the point to make it FAIR for everyone?

Mitch  <==>  shocked by the sheer numbers of roof-riders..




> > "Schooner" said:
> > > This has been beat to death, there is no advantage of using any view.
Use
> > > the one that makes the driver the most comfortable and safe to run
near.
> > > The view does little to impact the drivers performance or give the
many
> > > advantage.

> > That is utterly bullshit - and you know it.

> I fail to see how have better peripheral vision (knowing when a car
> is beside you) and being able to seee over a crumple hood is a bad
> thing.  Forcing***pit view is just plain stupid and dangerous to
> other online drivers.  For road racing, I roof-race so that I can see
> a little farther down the track.

> If Eldred was forcing***pit on, I wouldn't be racing in RASCAR.

Steve Blankenshi

5 things Papy MUST include in N2003...

by Steve Blankenshi » Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:30:39

"Plain stupid and dangerous to other online drivers"?  Not really.  Allowing
the host to force things like***pit view levels the playing field.  If by
roof-riding you're getting better peripheral and distance vision for less
mental investment spent on those things, then you have more "human CPU
cycles" to spend on other racing areas, which seems a clear advantage to me.
I know it takes a fair effort to read my position in heavy traffic from the
***pit, and that's less focus I have to spend on going faster.  And knowing
I won't be able to see over a crumpled hood might makes me that much more
inclined to try to avoid getting one.  Which is the point.

I do appreciate your desire to avoid crashes; all this would be less of a
concern if Papy's online prediction/collision code worked as well as LFS'
seems to.  It might not be possible with code that allows so many cars
online, but being able to bump and rub a bit (without unrealistically
disastrous consequences) would make much more difference in the online
experience than the above-mentioned restrictions.  Crashes resulting from
online code-enhanced/induced contact, along with simple undisciplined
driving, are imho the main detractors from online racing with NR2002.  They
also are what leads to most of the usual shouting matches in the chat
window.  This was less of an issue with GPL simply due the cars not usually
being so close together.  I can imagine the fiasco that would result from
using the current online prediction code in a CART sim, with much greater
speeds and the accompanying drop in reaction time.

Aside from better online code, what I'd really love to see from a sim would
be some sort of scenario-based offline driving certification that could be
used like rating and LPI to allow/exclude drivers.  Something that would
include long runs in heavy traffic without crashing, in order to develop
restraint and discipline in drivers.  With GPL, I used to practice for VROC
by doing offline Pro/Short races from the back of the grid, with the object
being to win without touching another car.  May not have produced super
hotlaps, but it really helped online.

SB


Gerry Aitke

5 things Papy MUST include in N2003...

by Gerry Aitke » Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:42:54




> > "Schooner" said:
> > > This has been beat to death, there is no advantage of using any view.  Use
> > > the one that makes the driver the most comfortable and safe to run near.
> > > The view does little to impact the drivers performance or give the many
> > > advantage.

> > That is utterly bullshit - and you know it.

> I fail to see how have better peripheral vision (knowing when a car
> is beside you) and being able to seee over a crumple hood is a bad
> thing.  Forcing***pit view is just plain stupid and dangerous to
> other online drivers.  For road racing, I roof-race so that I can see
> a little farther down the track.

One small point: There is actually LESS peripheral vision in both bumper
cam and roof cam than in the***pit view.

Well, if he did you could just cheat, could you not? And this is the
point we are trying to make.

Gerry

Dan Belch

5 things Papy MUST include in N2003...

by Dan Belch » Thu, 28 Nov 2002 02:29:06

Understandable argument.  However, just tell me one thing; if you were racing
me online, would you rather I race in the***pit and crash into you every five
seconds because I'm not comfortable there and have no freaking clue where the
edges of the car are, etc. or giving you a great, clean race with me in the
roof cam?  This is about _FUN_, not realistically emulating every single little
tiny detail of NASCAR Winston Cup.

-----------------------------------------
Dan Belcher
Webmaster,
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Nick

5 things Papy MUST include in N2003...

by Nick » Thu, 28 Nov 2002 03:31:57

I don't think it is a case of the roof cam giving an advantage over reality,
I think the roof cam gives a better approximation of reality (okay, it's a
little high, but it's about right on the lateral field of view). From my
point of view, using the***pit view is a DISadvantage, because you are
cluttering your already tiny viewport into the world with a whole bunch of
pointless eye-candy, for want of a better expression. Try building a cone
out of cardboard which only allows you to see the parts of the monitor which
look outside of your car from the***pit view (kinda like an oddly-shaped
telescope), go sit in your car, and drive around for a bit with your new
'Field-Of-View-Restrictor' taped to your face. Then you might realise that
the only thing realistic about the***pit view is the fact that there is a
steering wheel in front of your face, and I already have one of those...

I think the guys who use the***pit view only do it because of some
unconscious belief of it being more realistic. Which it is not. The roof cam
is fixed to the car, like the bumper cam, but the***pit view is free to
move around, replicating the exact movements which your brain subconsciously
corrects for in real life, but in real life you can lift your head up under
braking (and do this without thinking about it), in the sim you have no
control over your simulated head movements. Spinning on an oval is a joke
from the***pit view, while from the roof cam you can see exactly what the
car is doing, and correct or stop it with minimal risk to others on the
racetrack.

If you guys want to run your *arcade****pit view, then fine, but don't try
to stop us real simmers using our realistic roof cam....

Nick. Forever tongue in cheek. Take this post with a little bit of ;-D, it's
not totally serious. But I thought I'd let you read all of it before I told
ya...


> Youre a roof rider too John?  If there is no advantage then why use it?
Ive
> always felt roof riding was advantagous and should never have been
included
> in this SIM.  I will not roof-ride just so I can be competitive.  Just by
> saying "I can see farther" then you have an advantage.   When Im running
> side by side with a roof rider I must be overly cautious while the
> roof-rider can clearly see where I am.  This isnt an advantage?
Personally
> I do this to replicate as closely as possible what the RL drivers see and
> feel and last I checked Ive never seen a RL driver roof-ride.... Why does
> RASCAR use fixed setups then?  Isnt the point to make it FAIR for
everyone?

> Mitch  <==>  shocked by the sheer numbers of roof-riders..





> > > "Schooner" said:
> > > > This has been beat to death, there is no advantage of using any
view.
> Use
> > > > the one that makes the driver the most comfortable and safe to run
> near.
> > > > The view does little to impact the drivers performance or give the
> many
> > > > advantage.

> > > That is utterly bullshit - and you know it.

> > I fail to see how have better peripheral vision (knowing when a car
> > is beside you) and being able to seee over a crumple hood is a bad
> > thing.  Forcing***pit view is just plain stupid and dangerous to
> > other online drivers.  For road racing, I roof-race so that I can see
> > a little farther down the track.

> > If Eldred was forcing***pit on, I wouldn't be racing in RASCAR.

Milhous

5 things Papy MUST include in N2003...

by Milhous » Thu, 28 Nov 2002 03:58:20




> >4. Allow hosts/server-admins to force sun-glare/lens flare/shadows (if
this
> >is something you see in the car and not just on replays.)

> about lense flare.  you do know that this only happens when you view it
> through a camera lense?  you never get lense flare in real life while
driving
> down the highway.

> lense flare in games = unrealistic = not sim.  unless you go around
driving
> with a camera attached to you face?

Note that it's to be forced if it's only shown in-car (which it shouldn't
be, but that should be the only view...roof-cam and replays should have lens
flare)...

My question is, will the dirt and oil 'interact' with the light?  It's one
thing to drive with a decidedly dirty windshield at noon or at
night...another altogether to do it at sunset or sunrise or close to it.

Milhouse

Ed Solhei

5 things Papy MUST include in N2003...

by Ed Solhei » Thu, 28 Nov 2002 04:43:28

"Nick" <said:

BINGO!

--
ed_

----------------------------------------------------------------------
$10 says Petter Solberg wins the 2003 WRC.

Jim Lockin

5 things Papy MUST include in N2003...

by Jim Lockin » Thu, 28 Nov 2002 04:43:48



> > 1. Allow hosts/server-admins to turn off the wall-riding "fix"

> > 2. Allow hosts/server-admins to force dirt/oil on wind-shield.

> > 3. Allow hosts/server-admins to enforce the number of pitcrews to be
> > displayed.

> > 4. Allow hosts/server-admins to force sun-glare/lens flare/shadows (if
this
> > is something you see in the car and not just on replays.)

> > 5. Allow hosts/server-admins to enforce any [other] setting that might
give
> > an advantage if turned on/off.
> > [or any other setting I might have forgotten :-)]

> > --
> > ed_

> Agreed, Ed. I real want to see forced***pit views enforced. ATM, there
> are too many roof hugging or kite flying cheats out there.

> Gerry

  You guys are absolutely right , and I to just pray that maybe this time
Papy WILL include the feature where the admin can force realistic racing by
BLOCKING out the arcade roof riders ! !
Then maybe their daddy's will give them a nice pocket full of quarters so
they can head on back to the mall arcades where they belong !

-=JL

Jim Lockin

5 things Papy MUST include in N2003...

by Jim Lockin » Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:06:42


   May I ask what makes you such an expert on what is or isn't an advantage
on the sim racing track  ?

 IMO  anyone who thinks that roof riding, [where "little johnny" can see for
friggin' miles in all directions] does not offer am UNFAIR advantage, should
give himself  a little shake .

-=JL


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