rec.autos.simulators

sequels, of course), for the most part. Crash Bandicot et al is yet another
mindless platformer.

Chill, Sunshine Superman! Crash is also tried and proven. So is the
"upcoming" Tekken 732 (you just wait and see ;-) ).

--
Ph7

Don't mind your makeup,
Make your mind up!
(Frank Zappa)

--
Gunnar
    #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo: 2
                    to err is human -- to forgive is bovine.

Have you read any of the nVidia shader documentation?

There's more to it than glShadeModel( GL_EASY_PER_PIXEL_LIGHTING_OMG_NV );

The vertex and pixel shader interfaces are low level; you basically write
effects in graphics card assembler. The whole point is to give programmers
fine-grained control of T&L and if you want the best results from the XBOX
you DO write all the effects yourself, do the transformations yourself,
implement lighting yourself. If you don't understand this you've missed the
entire point of programmable graphics hardware.

And regardless of the hardware or API used, 3D engines still require complex
math and data structures. Drawing is the icing on the cake. My biggest
surprise in learning OpenGL was how little it had to do with the graphics
applications I wrote. I thought OpenGL was synonymous with 3D engine
programming, but much of the good stuff (scene management, collision
detection, physics, AI, etc.) is abstracted away from rendering. That's why
you see engines that support OpenGL, Direct3D and a software renderer or
engines like NetImmerse that run on XBOX, Gamecube, PS2 and PC. Don't think
they write every line of engine code 3-4 times in platform-specific
assembler.

Nick

3rd-person, Nick. You're an odd one indeed.
consoles games (at least PS2 anyway) are better: faster and
visually/graphically. Just look at Grand Theft Auto 3 for an example.
according to http://www.racesimcentral.net/(which
is a good explanation of the differnences between the PS2 and Xbox.

That "explanation" is full of ***i'm afraid.

Victor

No. Brute force is when you have lots of extremely powerful obects which are
just pumping out data constantly, such as a 2.4Ghz CPU, not a SIMD principle
where there is just one instruction in the processor acting on a stream of
data.

I will tell the people at my university who gave me a Masters degree in
Computer Science / Software Engineering after four years of hard work that
they might as well have not bothered. I will also stop working on my
commercial car sim and revert to writing a program in VB to open the CD
tray. Thank you for showing me the errors of my ways, Nitz Walsh. Nobody
really wanted another realistic racing sim, anyway.

;) They also explode in lots of pieces nicely when dropped from high places.
<snicker>

Yeah, but why didn't you say that PCs explode into MORE pieces? That would
seem to sum up your PC > console argument perfectly... <g>

For the purpose of understanding the topic at hand, you might as well not
have bothered.  Your past education is irrelevant to this thread (as you've
aptly demonstrated), the weak arguments you've given with respect to how
modern architectures of PC and consoles differ (and the demands each
respective developer faces) were quite blatant.  My initial post detailed my
objections to your hardware analysis in detail, in response you stated that
I "missed the point entirely", obviously bypassing the rebuttals I made.
The only other technical detail you offer was a bumbling explanation of the
PS2''s vector units, with which you:

1) Failed to understand how the vector units of the PS2 differ significantly
from pixel shaders and multipass rendering techniques, the latter of which
are still required for many standard texturing effects.  And...
2) In extolling the "flexible" virtues of the vector units, basically
eradicated your main argument with regards to the admirable features of the
PS2's design, namely it's super-wide bus to its internal 4MB of video
memory.  Guess what happens when you involve the Emotion Engine to modify
on-screen textures? They will have to reside in RDRAM, where it faces the
limited 3.2 gb connection from the EE.  That quickly becomes quite a
bottleneck.

Your post was barely indistinguishable from a raving 14year old zealot on
the console newsgroups, flashing your credentials simply adds an air of
desperation to scramble for whatever respectability you may have left on
this topic.

I suggest next time you want to flaunt your resume, do so in a locale where
you haven't previously demonstrated your ineptitude.

sequels, of course), for the most part. Crash Bandicot et al is yet another
mindless platformer.

That is so true.

One can also argue against "complex" games, as opposed to "simple" games.

Some (very few) people think it very complicated if a game has many options,
controls, buttons etc. This reminds me of the old "proof" to god's
exeistence.

Short version:
If you found a watch in the middle of nowhere, with no one around, would you
think it was created by evolution? Look around you. The world is much more
complex than a watch, than it must be created by someone, too. We know it
wasn't created by humans, then it must be god, right? <tada>

Wrong.
Complexity does not prove design. OTC, simplicity does.
Simple example: the eye and the camera perform more or less the same task.
Yet no human would imagine creating a camera after the eye. The camera is
much simpler and does the job very well.

True complexity lies in abstractness. Watch classic games, and understand
what made them classic. Simplicity, mostly.

--
Ph7

Don't mind your makeup,
Make your mind up!
(Frank Zappa)

As for PC RPGs, sorry, but I've played paper RPGs (AD&D, AD&D2, ***punk, Palladium, Shadowrun) and they PALE in comparison to PC games in terms of immersion, realism, and, of course, graphics. :) The days I use figurines to represent my character is LONG gone! <snicker>

yeah in pencil npaper rpgs anything's possible and can be as interactive and
dynamic as you want it to be man.
just don't experience it alone dude cuz it's not meant to be

ps. i'll call fps platformers as long as there are platforms and you can
jump on to them man

platformer, but even that's stretching it. Regardless, Hitman isn't
1st-person (not sure about Hitman 2) and Thief 3 isn't a shooter, per se;
it's a sneaker (stealth). Deus Ex and NOLF also break from the tradition
mindless FPS mold (Project: I'm Going In SOMEWHAT does but it's still fairly
mindless).
Palladium, Shadowrun) and they PALE in comparison to PC games in terms of
immersion, realism, and, of course, graphics. :) The days I use figurines to
represent my character is LONG gone! <snicker>