rec.autos.simulators

Start Line: Obviously this is the most difficult part of an on-line race and
the best opportunity for a gigantic accident.  I feel that alot of these
collisions could be avoided if the person behind kept a distance from the
guy in front and instead of trying crazy first corner out-breaking moves
just let the person to  his side slot in front if he had managed to get his
nose in-front.

First Corner: If a miracle does occur and everyone gets away from the start
okay, then the next canditate for a shunt is the first corner.  At this
point in the race the tyres are still cold and you have very little clue how
much room you need to brake.  Best idea here is to give the guy in-front
room, brake early and try to keep on the racing line.  Many times I have
slowed as not to bump the guy in front at turn one and been rammed from
behind by someone else going full belt!   Sometimes I wonder if the person
behind was under the impression that the race results were based on his
position after turn one?

First Lap:  Tyres are still cold and drivers are unsure of the cars
performance abilities on full tanks.  Passing is a much more dangerous
prospect when the driver is not in total control of his own vehicle.

The fast guy who is involved in an early race crash and is storming through
the field:  This has to be one of the most annoying types of on-line GPL
drivers.  Quite a few times I have managed to avoid the start/turn one
catastrophe and have moved up quite a bit from my grid position.  This is
usually spoiled by a driver(s) who were involved in the previous accidents
climbing back though the field.  I get the impression that some of these
drivers think they have some right to be at the front of the field and
instead of waiting for a convenient opportunity to pass a slower car will
make a wild overtaking move as soon as they are in shooting range of the
chap in front.  This undoubtedly ends in tears as the driver in front quite
rightly is not expecting such a stupid move and quite rightly feels that he
has every right to defend his position.

Well those are some of the unnecessary causes of on-line accidents, how can
we try to avoid them?

As I already mentioned, take it easy on the first lap.  A race isn't won at
the first corner.  Consideration should also be given to other hazards
associated with this sort of racing, like latency and warp.  A cautious
first lap or two will ensure that the field will still be pretty close to
allow proper racing as the race progresses.

Assess the situation.  If you catch a slower car, don't try and pass as soon
as you have caught up.  Follow giving yourself some space for a lap or two
and see if you can work out where the person in front may be a bit slower so
the next lap you can get yourself into position to try and get past at that
point.  Also try and consider if it is a safe passing point.

Don't fight for the corner if there is no hope of winning it.  If the person
following you has got alongside, it is better to let him take the corner
than hitiing him and taking both of you down the order.  On the other hand,
if the overtaker, realises that he hasn't done quite enough to take the
position he should back off before it's too late and try again the next lap.

If you can't pass the car in front safely, then don't.  Even if the driver
in front is slower, if you can't pass in a fair fight then you will just
have to wait for a mistake which will allow you to slip through.  A recent
real life example of this would be Mika Hakkinen stuck behind Gaston
Mazzacane at Indianapolis last year.  Though the Mclaren was vastly
superior, we didn't see the Finn driving into the back of the Argentinian
when he realised he couldn't pass him.

We all race GPL because it is the most realistic driving sim around, so why
not add to the realism and try to think like real racing drivers do?

This may seem like a big moan against all on-line drivers, but it's not.
Most I race with in leagues are very good and careful.  There are a few
though who I think could be a bit more careful and considerate.

Chris

(Phew!)

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I always take the view that if you're not on the front row of the grid,
you're better off not setting a time, being at the back and waiting for
the inevitable turn 1 carnage. Many's the time I've picked my way
through the spinning, shooting cars to be in 4th at the end of the 1st
lap.

Rouen is particularly bad for 1st lap crashes, as is Watkins Glen,
Nurburgring and a few others.

- Michael

Chris Bloom wrote

Agreed.

I don't think so. Consider Monza. First one enters CG normal.
Second one releases the throttle a bit earlier as usual.
Third one notices this and touches the brake a bit.
Fourth one is surprised by nr. 3 braking that early, has to hit the brakes
harder.
Fifth one will rear-end nr.4 and wonder why this stupid guy jumps
on the brakes. (alternative: nr. 5 passes nr.4 and will mess up with no.3)

IMHO nr.2 is to blame in this case. With nr.1 going into CG as usual, there
is no need to slow down earlier.

IMHO better: Brake as usual. (of course considering full fuel load and cold
tires!!)

Yup. Exactly. A guy in front of you thought, better slow down a bit earlier
:(
(otherwise you wouldnt have to slow down because of the guy in front of you
but because of the corner you were approaching)

Maybe he just feared to get rear ended if he brakes earlier than usual..

Fully agreed.
Ever seen <insert top driver of your choice here> slowing down earlier for
turn one to give the guy in front some room? No way. Front wing
almost under the engine of car ahead through first corner. Of course, this
only works
if everyone is braking at the same, usual spot.. (and this just works if
everyone know this spot..)

--> everyone should know where to slow down with cold tires and heavy fuel
load.

This may seem like a big moan against all on-line drivers who brake early,
but it's not.
Everyone who brakes early at least THINKS a bit and shows his respect to
other
drivers. And many times it works. It would always work, if driver nr. 2
above
slows down a bit earlier, nr. 3 slows down TWO bits earlier, nr. 4 three
bits...
but if nr. 5 considers braking just one bit earlier, he will brake 2 bits
too late -
and no one can expect nr. 14 braking 13 bits earlier :(

My conclusion:
If you want to avoid crashes then
1. not braking earlier means, you have to trust everyone in front of you to
do the same.
2. braking earlier means, you have to trust everyone behind you to do the
same.
That's really what I call a dilemma :-/

done ;)

   Herbert

PS: just in case this posting is unreadable, HTML, or bad format/headers:
It is the first posting with a fresh installed MSIE, sorry about that.
I guess, I got all the options right, but you never know ... its from M$  :(

I don't think so...
If you are travelling 2 feet behind the guy in front you have to brake when
he brakes NOT your normal braking point ( a car's length plus 2 feet down
the road if you brake in the saem place as him) - or you.

Now add a queue of 5 cars and the guy at the back is braking 5 car lengths
plus 10 feet for all to retain the 2 foot gaps.

Now in reality there would be some "closure" under braking - e.g the gap
goes down form 10 feet to 2 feet - but the same principal of braking earlier
than normal applies.

Check out the first corner of a GP and see where the guys at the back are
coming to a near standstill - yards from any normal braking point.

Also remeber the <insert top driver of your choice here> doesn't always
judge how much earlier they have to brake when following close behind.
Remember Senna vs Mansell at Australia, Senna vs Brundle at Monza, Hill vs
Schumacher also at Monza. All guilty of rear ending the front guy when
trying to run as close as possible behind the front guy and not braking
early enough.

Tony

How true. What amazes me is when I slow because cars are spinning ahead and
get hit at full speed by the guy behind. Hasn't he seen the accident ahead?

Maybe he has just watched Days of Thunder - and thinks he is Tom Cruise
keeping his foot down through the tyre smoke and coming out victorious!

Tony

"Tony Rickard" wrote

Hmmm, should say

...brake in the same place as him) - or you hit him

Doh!

<snip>
ahead?
<snip>

This is the sad part. The guy behind may very well not have seen the
accident in front, as GPL allows you to see only the 6 closest cars in front
of you. In a tight starting grid, with 4 or 5 cars within a second, a start
crash in front may come as a total surprise.

Lesson 1: when qualifying at 6th or slower, you should do an easy start, as
there may have been a crash in front of you that you cannot see until it's
too late.

Of course, the above applies to 8th and slower driver as well.

-------

A friend of mine recently found a smart way of starting a Nrburgring race.
Immediately after the start he raises his hand, indicating he has a problem,
and pulls over. Then all the cars passes. Of course they crash in T1. Then
my friend passes the wrecks, not being involved in the crashes, and gaines
several positions.

Jon Andersen

I disagree.

Nr 2 or nr 5 can very rarely be held responsible for nr 1's  actions. Nr 5
has an opportunity to see what nr 1 is doing. Nr 1 cannot see what nr 5 is
doing. Nr 5 should know this, and behave accordingly.

The driver in front chooses his line. The drivers behind has to adapt, even
if this means braking ealier than when doing hotlaps. Besides: If the driver
behind thinks he is faster than the driver in front, he should know that he
normally probably will brake later than the driver in front. If he brakes at
his normal point, he will cause a T1 crash. Thus, he should brake earlier.

If you are nr 5 at the grid: what makes you think that you can win by
passing everyone at T1? Isn't it likely that the slow T1 entrance by the
drivers in front is being done in an effort to prevent start crashes? If you
pass, even without causing a crash, you are likely to be passed within a few
laps.

If you are significantly slower than the driver in front (0,5 seconds or
more at a <1.30 min track), then don't even think of doing a T1 pass. Most
likely you will cause a crash. If you don't cause a crash, you will be
passed within 5 laps.

Pay the proper respect to the qualifying times. Brake just a little bit
earlier than usual. The the number of T1 crashes will decrease.

Jon Andersen

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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Following driver has the visibility, faster driver has the better car
control. If the two combine the burden of guilt doubles, supposing the
slower / preceding driver made an effort to be predictable. I suggest people
try racing mixed classes some time (F1/F2 for example) to practise
_patience_.

Fast drivers should recognise that at the majority of corners a passing
manouvre against a slower/less capable driver is just not "on". Hint: they
are the same as the corners where a move on a nearly equally fast /
competent driver is not an option.

Jan.
=---

I always wanted the hare to win.

Jon,

One of the problems, as I experience it, is that some hotlappers can't
be bothered to qualify. They just come along in their Loti at the last
second and try to gain positions on lap 1. If that fails, they just
disco having ruined the race for several others.

They also enjoy ramming you on the grid by going at the drop of the flag
instead of waiting for the car ahead of them to move.

Sad but true.

Jens

I can't agree with that. First, on the first lap you don't know
exactly where the guy ahead normally brakes (if he does). You need
to leave some room to have enough time to react in the worst case.
Second, when there's a relatively slow corner ahead, you can't brake
at normal point if you're close behind, because the time gap that is
enough at high speed is not sufficient at low speed. So you have to
brake earlier. And if you're in 10th position you have to brake
much earlier than if you're in 4th position, because of the same
effect. When both are in effect together one has to brake really
early:>

Alex
(alexti)

P.S. I am making assumption that there're sensible drivers
around you.

Obvious in principle, but not so easy in practice. The trouble is that
making a clean, smooth start in GPL is very hard indeed - it's all too
easy to drop the revs at just the wrong time, be slow getting underway,
and get Surtees'd by the car behind, who *has* made a good start.

You might say that the person behind should be watching, and again
you'd be right in principle, but they've got very limited room for
manoeuvre (swerving would inevitably cause a crash, as would stamping
on the brakes), and need to react in a split second. Even real-life F1
drivers can't always do it - which is why everyone's so frightened when
a car stalls on the grid. Witness poor Riccardo Paletti in 1982 who was
killed in just such a crash.

Not sure I entirely agree here. If the car in front of you slows into
the corner, the only sensible course of action is for you to brake as
well. It's (in general) up to the car behind to decide for themself how
to react to *your* actions. Take Watkins Glen as an example - if
everyone went at full pelt through the esses there'd almost certainly
be a huge smash. Just holding back slightly is usually safer.

Agreed here. Overtaking on lap one is always a risky business - it's
not a good idea in most circumstances. There's much more to be gained
by sitting in the "queue" for a lap, observing other drivers' styles.

<snip>

Again, I agree with you. There's no excuse for deliberately putting the
frighteners on someone you're trying to pass (as opposed to
legitimately putting pressure on them by sitting behind them lap after
lap and waiting for a mistake - which is a very effective tactic).

It's not at all easy for a slower driver to decide what to do if a
faster driver comes up behind. Generally, I think one should stay on
the racing line, but just ease off a little on the straights if you
want to let someone through, but there needs to be some kind of
"understanding" with the other bloke, which isn't always easy to
achieve.

I think "a lap or two" is possibly overdoing it - remember that an Int
Short race (the most common on VROC) is only 11 laps at Monza, and just
5 at Spa! It's certainly a good idea to follow them for a while,
though, just to see if *they* are in enough control of the car for you
to get past safely - you don't want them to slew into you because
they're having trouble keeping the car going straight!

This is one of the hardest things to get right, and you're quite right
that coming out of a corner second is better than not coming out of it
at all. In the thick of battle, though, a lot of heads get hotter than
they should, so occasionally it's actually safer to get out of the
other bloke's way before they do something stupid!

<snip>

Right. And if you're filling their mirrors for lap after lap, there's
every chance they're going to get worried, and make an error. Then you
can overtake, and thumb your virtual nose at them <g>.

--
David. (GPLRank handicap: -5.92)
The GPL Scrapyard - http://scrapyard.netcabins.com
"After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll,
really" -
Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

Chris

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