rec.autos.simulators

GPL - On-Line Passing

Eldre

GPL - On-Line Passing

by Eldre » Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:58:10



>I think a GP race is much different.  People enter it with the mindset that
>it's a fight 'to the finish'.  They're not going to drop out just because
>they
>have no chance of winning.  In a GP race, anything can happen, and the
>participants KNOW that.

I guess I have to retract this, huh?  I dropped out of the GP race today, and
conceded the win.  I knew I couldn't catch Carlo UNLESS he crashed, and we were
the only 2 left...<sulks in shame>

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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Eldre

GPL - On-Line Passing

by Eldre » Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:58:11



>Hi Eldred,

>I seem to be disagreeing with everyone lately.  :)
>If the guys that discoed, discoed from poor connections, then i would
>agree with you, to a certain extent,  but in Semi's post, he stated
>that the guys that discoed "crashed", THEN they discoed, and others
>simply couldn't keep their cars on the road, and drive at a sensible
>pace to complete the race, where Semi did both of those things, so
>deserved the win.

This is how I'm usually the last car running.  I'm not fast enough to keep up
with the drivers who are still left.  The only ones I beat are the ones who
disco...  I wish there was a different message for a accidental disco vs. a
deliberate one...

I do to, but they're few and far between... :(

I think I've won ONE race - Monza.  Basically, because everyone who was faster
disco'd.

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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Gary Stephenso

GPL - On-Line Passing

by Gary Stephenso » Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:31:31


>  The only way you can try to avoid the crashes is to qualify on pole,

I've had pole twice so far, at Monza and Spa. Both races I was taken out
at turn 1 by some flaming idiot. Of course I had to wait for the entire
field to go by before I could reset...screw that. Neither one of those
corners is good for passing, but the brain damaged insist on stuffing it
in there anyway.

Gary

Gary Stephenso

GPL - On-Line Passing

by Gary Stephenso » Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:32:47


> I have always been of the opinion that it is the following drivers
> responsibility not to hit the guy in front and not vice versa.

I agree!
Neil Rain

GPL - On-Line Passing

by Neil Rain » Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:14:27

I think the fact that Mansell had won the first 5 races of the season and
was threatening to beat Ayrton's record might have had something to do with
his thinking...


> I was referring to Adelaide 92. Senna & Mansell were racing for position.
A
> potential great battle ended early (lap 18).

> Davy Jones referred to the incident

> "I wonder if his (Senna's) thinking in a race isn't so far advanced that
his
> mind is not relating to the incident that's actually happening. Maybe if
> Nigel lifted a bit early, Ayrton just wasn't prepared for it, because his
> mind was already two or three corners ahead. You know, when you take a
> corner, your mind goes to the turn-in, then to the apex, then the exit.
> You're always a step ahead of what you're actually doing. But maybe Senna
is
> always three steps ahead. Maybe that was it. And maybe that's why he's
such
> a great champion."

> So what chance have we lesser beings on VROC?



> > > Also remeber the <insert top driver of your choice here> doesn't
always
> > > judge how much earlier they have to brake when following close behind.
> > > Remember Senna vs Mansell at Australia, Senna vs Brundle at Monza,
Hill
> vs
> > > Schumacher also at Monza. All guilty of rear ending the front guy when
> > > trying to run as close as possible behind the front guy and not
braking
> > > early enough.

> > Bear in mind of course that Senna deliberately drove into Mansell just
> after
> > he'd been lapped, as it was his last chance to affect the outcome of the
> > race.

> > Mansell had to brake heavily for the chicane, so it was an ideal
> > opportunity.

> > Of course I could be wrong, and maybe Senna was just an incompetent
> > driver... well, what do you think?  ;-)

Jens H. Kruus

GPL - On-Line Passing

by Jens H. Kruus » Wed, 24 Jan 2001 00:59:39




>> I think a GP race is much different.  People enter it with the mindset that
>> it's a fight 'to the finish'.  They're not going to drop out just because
>> they
>> have no chance of winning.  In a GP race, anything can happen, and the
>> participants KNOW that.

> I guess I have to retract this, huh?  I dropped out of the GP race today, and
> conceded the win.  I knew I couldn't catch Carlo UNLESS he crashed, and we were
> the only 2 left...<sulks in shame>

Now, now. Don't be ashamed of yourself. <Pats Eldred on the back.> You
were hit at the start and went on to complete half the race instead of
quitting or crashing in frustration.

Actually, I did wonder about your deliberate disco, but I spent more
time thinking about Jan V. Do you realize that he has a different
finishing spot in each GP? And he has already covered 1-4? A bleak
future for our friend is in the cards.

You should be annoyed at yourself, however. Even without crashing, Carlo
could have been caught between the horns of an awful dilemma: Relieve
himself in or away from the chair? Something you should always keep in
mind in a 2 hour race.

Cheers,
Jens

ry..

GPL - On-Line Passing

by ry.. » Wed, 24 Jan 2001 01:58:29




> >I have noticed that there are several "typical" collisions that
> >occur in on-line GPL races.

jeez guys.....you dont win the race at turn 1.....you have to be in it
to win it. The problem is that vroc drivers have wildly different
perceptions of what is happening in front of them due to lag/latency
etc.
It would take the co-operation of all drivers in a race to "take it
easy" thru T1 to get a full race going....I dont think I can remember
being in a full race at the end of lap 1 yet!

Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/

Jan Verschuere

GPL - On-Line Passing

by Jan Verschuere » Wed, 24 Jan 2001 03:51:45

Jens H. Kruuse wrote...

> <snip>
> Now, now. Don't be ashamed of yourself. <Pats Eldred on the
> back.> You were hit at the start and went on to complete
> half the race instead of quitting or crashing in frustration.

Yeah, he was doing pretty well. Too bad about 70% of the drivers present on
the day werent up to the challenge. I think the field was reduced to 5 or 6
within the distance of an int short... pitifull really. Or maybe most of
them hadn't payed attention and only found out it was a GP when they tried
to hit shift-r? BTW, Eldred: what was waving me through all about in the
beginning of the race? Surely, you're not *that* paranoid about getting hit
and give up without even trying to defend your line?

To quote the great Fangio: "Superstition has no place in a racer's mind."
Besides... 2, 1, 3, 4: I don't see a real pattern emerging.<g> I might have
gotten 2nd or better in this last one had the Maserati held together. Pretty
weird, it just faltered and let go at about 6000rpm out of Clubhouse.
Haven't watched a replay yet, but I'm pretty sure I didn't treat my engine
disrespectfully, much.

And even it were to go downhill from here on in... (as it should if more
people finish them GP's), I don't think even coming in 17th out of 19
runners, 3 laps down or somesuch after an online GP could wipe that sense of
accomplishment and ear-to-ear grin away.

LOL.... sick Jens, very sick. ;-))

Tony Rickar

GPL - On-Line Passing

by Tony Rickar » Wed, 24 Jan 2001 04:12:17

True - though there is a debate as to whether it was Senna's fault:

Personal observations of Senna by Xtra Motoring Magazine contributor Gavin
Dawson

"The telemetry told the the final story in the end with Mansell. Adelaide
1992 should have been a true fight of Senna & Mansell but the Brit's not
inconsiderable nerve cracked & he made a mistake leading to the demise of
both them."

Though this does seem a shade biased :-)

Tony


> I think the fact that Mansell had won the first 5 races of the season and
> was threatening to beat Ayrton's record might have had something to do
with
> his thinking...



> > I was referring to Adelaide 92. Senna & Mansell were racing for
position.
> A
> > potential great battle ended early (lap 18).

Ale

GPL - On-Line Passing

by Ale » Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:50:55



<snip>

I would choose to be last running over the first DNF any day
of week:>

Same here, but I think there are plenty of them, but always
there are few mindless drivers that can destroy race for
everybody else.

Alex
(alexti)

Peter Ive

GPL - On-Line Passing

by Peter Ive » Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:56:50





>>Chris Bloom wrote
><snip>
>>> First Corner: If a miracle does occur and everyone gets away from the
>>start
>>> okay, then the next canditate for a shunt is the first corner.  At
>>> this point in the race the tyres are still cold and you have very
>>> little clue
>>how
>>> much room you need to brake.  Best idea here is to give the guy
>>> in-front room, brake early and try to keep on the racing line.

>>I don't think so. Consider Monza. First one enters CG normal.
>>Second one releases the throttle a bit earlier as usual.
>>Third one notices this and touches the brake a bit.
>>Fourth one is surprised by nr. 3 braking that early, has to hit the
>>brakes harder.
>>Fifth one will rear-end nr.4 and wonder why this stupid guy jumps
>>on the brakes. (alternative: nr. 5 passes nr.4 and will mess up with
>>no.3)

>>IMHO nr.2 is to blame in this case. With nr.1 going into CG as usual,
>>there is no need to slow down earlier.

>>IMHO better: Brake as usual. (of course considering full fuel load and
>>cold tires!!)

>I can't agree with that. First, on the first lap you don't know
>exactly where the guy ahead normally brakes (if he does). You need
>to leave some room to have enough time to react in the worst case.
>Second, when there's a relatively slow corner ahead, you can't brake
>at normal point if you're close behind, because the time gap that is
>enough at high speed is not sufficient at low speed. So you have to
>brake earlier. And if you're in 10th position you have to brake
>much earlier than if you're in 4th position, because of the same
>effect. When both are in effect together one has to brake really
>early:>

When it comes to turn 1 braking - or any potential braking to overtake
manoeuvre for that matter - then various things need to be taken into
consideration.   Obviously at the start of the race there are a lot more
things to take into consideration than say later on in a race when it
will probably be just you and another driver who are fighting for the
corner and so there is a lot more potential for accidents/collisions to
happen because everyone is trying to keep their attention on 2 or 3
different things at once.

When people talk about 'braking earlier' as such, I'm not sure that I
would entirely advocate this policy, especially if it is going to entail
the driver, although braking earlier, still braking at his/her usual
rate.  I believe this still leaves plenty of potential for accidents.
If a car is in front of me coming towards the first corner then I need
to consider various things - probably in this order:

1)  Do I think that I can make an overtaking opportunity at such an
early stage?

Almost certainly this is going to have been decided first and hopefully
long before the corner arrives, based upon relative speeds.  If I don't
think I'm closing fast enough to get past - not just my nose alongside -
before the corner arrives then don't even think about.

2) Am I going to have to slow up earlier than I would normally for the
corner in order to ensure that I do not collide with the car in front?

Once decision (1) has been made then (2) should also have been decided
as early as possible before the braking area for the corner arrives and
should definitely not be one of those play-it-by-ear decisions - once
decided then stick to it no matter what the driver in front does even if
it could cost a place or 2 - unless you have no choice and are trying to
avoid contact of course.  I normally have my mind made up on this one
early as in 'Ok, I'm way too close.  Better give this guy some room
under braking.  Let's not be silly here.'

What I prefer to do if I am too close is actually let off the throttle
perhaps 2 or 3 seconds before I would come to my normal braking point,
which should lengthen the gap between me and the driver in front by a
safe enough margin to allow me time and room to make any adjustments
into the corner, and then - if he is pretty good and brakes where I
expected him too - I can brake, but not as hard as normal so that I can
close up under braking into the corner.  If he does brake that little
bit harder or earlier then so can I also.

3)  Can I take my normal line through the corner or am I going to take a
more defensive line because of someone in my mirrors who I believe may
well be considering some 'do or die' early dive on my inside, and have I
left it too late to change my current line to a more defensive one which
could result in the car behind not having enough time to adjust his
line/braking to avoid a collision?

If there is a car in this situation and I've got the time then I will
move to the inside and, still taking (2) into consideration, will slow
up for the corner appropriately.  Hopefully, because I am now in his
line, he will be a little more careful about where he decides to brake
and doesn't rear-end me.  No guarantee here but, if he is thinking the
same way as me then he will already be off the accelerator early and
given me and him enough room to allow for him to close up under braking
and to prevent anyone who may be on his outside from trying to slip into
any temporary gap that may have existed for those few seconds as he
eased off just before braking.

If I feel the driver is already too close for me to change my line then
I will happily yield, holding my line and easing off earlier than usual
depending on decision no. (2)

I'm not saying I've always thought this way and that I always practice
what I preach, but for me it's a good starting point and, if other
drivers could think this way then it's possible that there would be
fewer T1 accidents.  Then again...  :)

Ok, that gets us into T1 perhaps a little bit more cleanly, now what
about the exit... hehe.
--
Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington)
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying

No person's opinions can be said to be
more correct than another's, because each is
the sole judge of his or her own experience.

Andrew MacPhers

GPL - On-Line Passing

by Andrew MacPhers » Wed, 24 Jan 2001 18:16:00


> I wish there was a different message for a accidental
> disco vs. a deliberate one

It's no good for us in GPL, but I was pleased to see Papyrus have added
this to N4.

Andrew McP

Neil Rain

GPL - On-Line Passing

by Neil Rain » Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:28:41

Actually I was referring to a different race - I didn't see the one at
Adelaide.

All I remember was that in the race I'm thinking of, Senna had just been
lapped, and managed to punt Mansell as he entered the next chicane.

Mansell got a lot of stick from the British press for suggesting that it
might not have been an accident, but then again they always did hate him for
some reason!

Typical British attitude - they can't stand a winner (unless he's from
another country)!

Apparently Mansell was also quite rude to the press as a rule, but then
again who can blame him?


> True - though there is a debate as to whether it was Senna's fault:

> Personal observations of Senna by Xtra Motoring Magazine contributor Gavin
> Dawson

> "The telemetry told the the final story in the end with Mansell. Adelaide
> 1992 should have been a true fight of Senna & Mansell but the Brit's not
> inconsiderable nerve cracked & he made a mistake leading to the demise of
> both them."

> Though this does seem a shade biased :-)

> Tony



> > I think the fact that Mansell had won the first 5 races of the season
and
> > was threatening to beat Ayrton's record might have had something to do
> with
> > his thinking...



> > > I was referring to Adelaide 92. Senna & Mansell were racing for
> position.
> > A
> > > potential great battle ended early (lap 18).

Eldre

GPL - On-Line Passing

by Eldre » Thu, 25 Jan 2001 06:21:11



>I would choose to be last running over the first DNF any day
>of week:>

I do it all the time.  It's over-rated...<g>

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Eldre

GPL - On-Line Passing

by Eldre » Thu, 25 Jan 2001 06:21:12




>> I wish there was a different message for a accidental
>> disco vs. a deliberate one

>It's no good for us in GPL, but I was pleased to see Papyrus have added
>this to N4.

They did?  Cool!

--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.


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